How does Bowser's army always lose?

[cheat-master30]

Okay, I said this in a Waluigious article back in the day, but it kinda bugs me.

How come Bowser almost always quickly loses in the RPGs, despite having an army possibly millions strong in the platformers? Sometimes this is kind of explained, like with the Count Bleck moment in the Super Paper Mario intro...

But how can Fawful and Cackletta alone beat Bowser's crew in the first Mario and Luigi game? Just those two shoot down the Koopa Cruiser? Where were Bowser's soldiers from below deck at this point? Are there no weapons on this ship?

How come he doesn't just send out his airships after the Koopa Cruiser goes down? Cackletta and Fawful had no army at the time, they'd basically get curb stomped by the Galaxy 1 intro brigade:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2BQeRLbC8g

Same with Partners in Time. Future Bowser + army = destroyed Shroobs. And don't say he had no army other than Kamek, he must have got that cruiser from somewhere.

Or even Bowser's Inside Story. Fawful wins with three robots against Bowser's Castle?

I mean, I know they're redshirts and all, but really? They can't fight off maybe four individuals? Forgot to lock the front gate?

They're barely better than the Shake Dimension army!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw0P0PA2n-Q

Okay, still much better, at least the invaders in Bowser's case can FIGHT BACK in any way. Losing to Bandineros is like dying because of a poodle attack.

Paper Mario at least gives a magical handwave to why you have to collect the five mystical whatever they're called objects, usually via the '100% safe ACME Villain forcefield' At least Bowser thought of this idea once, kind of:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud3Doon4GJ4&feature=related


On a related note, how come the cartoons always made Mario out to be a wimp? The movie fair enough, but Mario running from a Goomba? Are you serious? Hell, why the running from a T Rex in the Mario World cartoon? He's beat far bigger monsters single handedly, or do game/cartoon physics suddenly not apply against 'real world' creatures? He's fought tougher:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-nMxaUTjGY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o9KCGJS-DQ

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xq8lqEDe-g

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrE9m8fHE5s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtKh7e2ESBc

He never needed no invincibility there, so why does he need it in all the spinoffs? Isn't the point of Mario as a series... escapism, not 'realism'?

[Koopalmier]

The cartoons are cartoons. They were made by DiC, an American company. Miyamoto didn't knew about them until someone told him Louis Albano was dead. I think we can safely consider them as being cartoons loosely based on the games, much like the movie.

Bowser's army is extremely big, but as you can see from Mario & Luigi 1 and 3 they aren't made for battle but for normal life. In other words, it's like sending random civilians to war. I think the only Koopas that are used to battle are Koopatrols. Otherwise, most of Bowser's army is made of weak-ish, random Koopas. Plus Mario is insanely powerful, so even if Bowser's "army" (see: people) was a real army made of soldiers, Mario would still beat it anyway. Also note that most (if not all) of the Paper Mario bosses were powered-up by the Star Rod (not counting the Koopa Bros.).

TL;DR Bowser's army sucks and the cartoons are awful.

[Artemendo]

I don't think Mario is "insanely powerful". By himself, he is just a plumber who can jump high. That's it. All his power is from items he gets. Arguably the strongest he has been is PM:TTYD as Danger Mario, but that's not "his" power, it's the badges'. Without items, he does 2 damage with one jump - nope, actually 1 since he needs the Lucky Star to jump twice. I guess Mario's only advantage is that he can USE all those items. I would never ever say that Mario is physically powerful, and he certainly can't use magic all by himself (I don't care about SSB).

[Koopalmier]

He could throw and lift a fortress in SMW. In the same game, he could run fast enough to run up walls. The Lucky Star is most likely more gameplay-related than anything (does Mario REALLY need that to be able to jump twice ? Plus he didn't need it in Super Mario RPG). In Mario Strikers Charged Mario could even jump hundreds of feet high. He could kill almost godly beings (the Shadow Queen, Super Dimentio) by mainly jumping on them, and he can throw around Bowser easily in Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy. His butt stomp is very powerful too, just look at Mario Sunshine and Mario Galaxy 2's final battles. He can throw a baseball ball strongly enough to make it catch on fire due to the speed of the throw. And, finally, the Star Children are said to be very strong, this definitely applies to Wario, Donkey Kong and Bowser already. I doubt a random guy who can jump high can be qualificated as being "very strong".

[Artemendo]

Point-by-point refutation!
Lifting fortress in SMW - Sight gag. Just as a fortress exploding in his face or him mopping it away.
Run up walls - Item. Without the smiling triangle, he can't do that.
Mario Strikers - Everyone can do showy things in that game. I remember a topic where we agreed it's not canon. Even if it was, it's a show effect. Like in wrestling.
Killing Shadow Queen - not without the Ultra Boots and Ultra Hammer and many, many badges. All are items!
Throwing around Bowser - OK, that would take some power, but he mainly swings him and then lets go. That is easier than picking stuff up. Also, Bowser is pretty small in that game.
Ground Pound in Sunshine - from such a height, it's powerful, of course! Anything hits harder from that height. And how did he gain it? With an item, FLUDD.
Baseball - again, in those games everyone does that kind of things. Or are you telling me Waluigi can actually make water appear everywhere by force of his will like in Mario Tennis?!
He's strong in that he is amazing at using items. Everyone else using the same items is weaker.

[Koopalmier]

I agree the lifting fortress thing was a gag, but it's not nothing.
He had to use the triangle because, you know, it would be completely impossible otherwise...
Mario didn't have the Ultra Boots in SPM, yet he could beat the "controller of dimensions", Dimentio, WITH the power of the all-powerful Chaos Heart AND the power of Luigi (that is also a Star Child).
Bowser small ? In Mario 64 ? Are you kidding me ?! He's three or four times bigger than Mario !!!
Someone falling from 50 ft would still not hit the ground hard enough to destroy it, and FLUDD didn't helped Mario destroying the floor - he helped Mario being high enough to be able to destroy the floor. Oh, and Mario apparently has an iron b*tt.
Waluigi was officially said to have magic powers, no ? Even if that wasn't officially stated, his glowing eyes in Mario Tennis, bizarre magic in Mario Power Tennis and Mario Baseball games, and his generally mysterious personality, should be enough to show that.

Mario IS strong. In Paper Mario and PM2, the power-up attacks and badges are more similar to gameplay elements than actual story elements. The goal of the series is to make the simpliest RPG ever, so when you level up your attack doesn't go up - the game later obligates it to go up, and you can use badges to power-up yourself even more. It's a bit like wondering why Bowser has 320 HP in M&L3 when you're controlling him but 1215 HP when you're fighting him.

[Artemendo]

Now, you make a point that badges are more gameplay than actuality. I, however, maintain that leveling up is more gameplay than actuality. Every RPG includes leveling up, and SPM only makes Super Dimentio so easy because leveling up is so easy. I bet that the real Mario - as well as Bowser and Peach - all had to use Pixls and quite a bit of strategy to kill Super Dimentio. It was certainly not Mario jumping on his head 10 times.

OK, swinging around Bowser IS hard. I cannot dispute that.

But, the pieces Mario breaks away are kind of flimsy in the first place. They don't crack or anything, just crumble.

As much as I like Waluigi, I believe everything in sports games is just show. Really. Waluigi is mean, but he is no wizard.
Seriously, sports games 1. have to make all characters athletic even if they aren't, and 2. have to give everyone special moves even if they don't have any. So that leads to the princesses doing backflips and whatnot, and super-armageddontastic soccer moves. All just show.

[cheat-master30]

To be perfectly fair, if you mention items, keep in mind one thing...

You don't technically need any of them. You can beat the Shadow Queen with no more than the Crystal Stars, and Bowser with no more than the Star Spirits, and never use those in battle. Items help, but they're never required in the RPGs to beat enemies or bosses. Heck, you can beat the final bosses in Mario and Luigi at level 1 with physical attacks. May take a while, but it's possible.

That must show some strength, correct?

[Artemendo]

That is only possible because in PM2, you have the Superguard, and in M&L, you have the possibility to dodge attacks. So, if a player is godly enough, he or she can do it, but that is not Mario being strong, it's the player being a total nerd and practicing the Superguard timing to death. The real Mario would have used the items and probably get hit quite a few times, too.

[Koopalmier]

In-reality, they crumble because he hits the extremity. That's still inhumanly strong.

Leveling up is more gameplay than actuality, indeed. Mario was as powerful as in the end of SPM as he was at the start of the game, in-actuality. In-actuality, I think Mario, Peach and Bowser fought altogether instead of only one character doing all the work. But if you didn't have any problems with a single characters, I doubt they had much problems when being 3. I know what you mean, but they could still beat him anyway. Oh, and Pixls are completely useless in that battle.

Waluigi being a wizard (although "magician" sounds better - and IS better, it's not like Waluigi used some strong and evil black magic, it sure is strange but not really scary or dangerous) is not impossible. After all that's the only thing his special attacks are based on (including the brambles control from Mario Strikers Charged) and the only thing he has outside are his powerful legs.

[Artemendo]

Meh. I think everything that's truly canon about Waluigi is: his MP3 appearance, his DDR: Mario Mix appearance, and the intro movies for the sports games. In none of these instances, he had any special powers. So I gather he would use items as well if he went on his own adventure.

[Koopalmier]

Aug 15, 2010 17:20:03 GMT -5 Artemendo said:

That is only possible because in PM2, you have the Superguard, and in M&L, you have the possibility to dodge attacks. So, if a player is godly enough, he or she can do it, but that is not Mario being strong, it's the player being a total nerd and practicing the Superguard timing to death. The real Mario would have used the items and probably get hit quite a few times, too.

Mario is controlled by the player. If you have no problems for beating the Shadow Queen without items, Mario is very strong. If you can't beat Hooktail with the FX Attack A badge, Mario is a normal person. Although I somewhat doubt the later. It's a bit like in the latest Touhou game, where you control the very weak Cirno. Due to her weakness, you see more obstacles than there actually are and the game is extremely difficult. Mario games are on the very easy side. Either it's because the games are about taking a walk and eating Snickers, either it's because Mario is so strong, resistant and agile that the adventure becomes easy.

[Artemendo]

I think this is something where there are just as many arguments for it as against it. My last words, though: we mostly consider Mario strong because he wins. But then again, EVERY video game hero wins. Mario wins simply because he is the good guy, and because the game will just restart if you lose. Also, there's that karmic circle with Bowser and him.

[shadowgoomba]

Fawful wins because he intercepts when they're least expecting it, such as in a transport vehicle or when Bowser's out dealing with the Marios. Mario always wins because he's Mario.

[EpicGyllynn]

Mario is Stronger and has more Skill than any Player. He has demonstrated the Ability to Manipulate Fire without a Fire Flower(See:Super Mario RPG, and Super Smash Bros.), although, I imagine it takes a LOT of Energy out of him, so he demonstrates Self-Controll. Mario can run fast enough to Scale an perfectly Right-Angled Wall! The Smiling Triangle isn't real, it's just there to show the Player that this wall is Different. Also, Mario is capable of Jumping at least 7 Feet in the Air, on Average. Even though he can Jump MUCH higher than that(Possibly a Mile or Two) on some Occasions(See:SSBB)! I don't believe in the Star Child thing though, as I don't believe Yoshi's Island DS to be Canon. And the Badges are probably just an In-game thing. Also, one could say Mario only Wins because of Wishes, but my Guess is he is just superior to Bowser! Look at Paper Mario, Mario doesn't need the Star Spirits to beat Bowser, just to take away his Invincability so everyones Favorite Plumber can do his thing! As for Super Mushroom, in the 2D Games they simply reverse the effects of a Koopa Curse, and in SM64DS, it's effects are Temporary! Even so, it IS possible to play through the 2D Games as little Mario, and as stated before, if the Player can do it, so can Mario, although I'm guessing he does use the Power-Ups.

[Artemendo]

OK, another round of refuting...
Mario is not stronger than any player. He is as strong as the IMAGINED player, i.e. the person for whom the game was created. The imagined player, or "average" player, is actually pretty bad. That's why he needs hints. That's why NPCs tell Mario how to long jump.
Manipulating fire without a fire flower: SSB is not canon. Mario could never do that in any other places, and he just needed a ranged attack, so they gave him that ability. SMRPG... they all have magic in that game. Every enemy uses magic, even. The game was designed by Square, and that's why they took the "item" aspect and redid it with magic like in FF. It doesn't mean the magic is actually real, or we would have seen at least a SINGLE of those attacks in any other game.
If Mario could run up any wall and the Smiling Triangle isn't real, why doesn't he do that, then? Hm? He can't. It's the Triangle. Even in SM64, there is a triangular structure at the bottom of all steep surfaces Mario can run up (Shifting Sand Land, Bowser in the Sky).
Yoshi's Island DS is not canon: I completely agree. It's a stupid fan-fiction story by Artoon, that's what it is.
You say Mario can beat Bowser without the Star Spirits, but no. The invincibility is too much for Mario. He does need them all.

[EpicGyllynn]

Super Smash Bros! Non CANON! You take that BACK! Why I--- Calm down, Calm down! I really need to make a Topic for my thoughts on SSB... *Runs off to Start Draft*

[Koopalmier]

I still can't understand why you people don't count YIDS as being canon. Or did I simply forget ?

[EpicGyllynn]

I don't consider it Canon because the Characters Ages don't line up with Partners in time, which certainly is more Canon than YIDS!

[Koopalmier]

How do they not match ?