What's more canon?

[cheat-master30]

The extremely obscure spinoffs that don't affect anything (aka, like the educational games, Japan only games and stuff like the Mario Party and Jungle Beat arcade machines), or the TV/comic/film adaptations of the Mario series?

And how come a lot of people tend to treat Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi as more canon than say, the other spinoffs, despite how arguably Mario Kart has had more influence on the main Mario series? Indeed, a quick comparison count (only things from Mario Kart or Mario RPGs that came TO the main series, not the other way around):

Paper Mario:

Goomba King became Goomboss in Mario 64 DS
Others?

Mario Kart

World 9 in New Super Mario Bros Wii inspired by and uses music from Rainbow Road in Mario Kart
World S has a Mario Kart inspired level based on Rainbow Road
Recent Mario games, and even Mario 64 DS as beta have Red Koopa Shells which can be thrown and home in on enemies.

For another interesting note, anyone who thinks Japanese adaptations of the series are more 'canon' than Western ones should keep in mind that at most, both sets have only really inspired maybe one thing each, and heck, most of the big influences to Mario 'canon' are actually Nintendo's own company divisions. Heck, more of the big changes in the series likely come from the people writing the manuals and translations than media adaptations.

[Sarisa]

Aug 19, 2010 10:25:20 GMT -5 cheat-master30 said:

The extremely obscure spinoffs that don't affect anything (aka, like the educational games, Japan only games and stuff like the Mario Party and Jungle Beat arcade machines), or the TV/comic/film adaptations of the Mario series?

That's a tough one. If the extremely obscure spinoffs were developed by third parties, I'd put them on the same level.

And how come a lot of people tend to treat Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi as more canon than say, the other spinoffs, despite how arguably Mario Kart has had more influence on the main Mario series? Indeed, a quick comparison count (only things from Mario Kart or Mario RPGs that came TO the main series, not the other way around): [snipped]

This is easy. The RPG spinoffs, excluding SMRPG which should be exiled to the tertiary canon for no fault of its own, bring in useful worldbuilding information - locations, history, characters, patterns of settlement (before PM1, did you think that there were Koopas who were happy subjects of the MK?), etc. Mario Kart brings in no useful information - the existence of racetracks all over the Mushroom-sphere is not groundbreaking and the level of international peace and cooperation necessary to stage a Mario Kart season could have been inferred from the RPGs, though not as well. Plus, to use TVTropes, they Go Karting With Bowser.

For another interesting note, anyone who thinks Japanese adaptations of the series are more 'canon' than Western ones should keep in mind that at most, both sets have only really inspired maybe one thing each, and heck, most of the big influences to Mario 'canon' are actually Nintendo's own company divisions. Heck, more of the big changes in the series likely come from the people writing the manuals and translations than media adaptations.

Seconded re: creative/bad translation creating more changes to Mario canon than televised spinoffs. There's a substantial flow of canon back from the US to Japan so it's only the small details that stay separated for long.

Which Japanese adaptation are you thinking of, by the way?

[SMBBQ]

What exactly do you mean by "Tertiary Canon", sarisa?

[Sarisa]

It's a personal theory that some things are "less canon" than others while still remaining part of the canon, instead of everything being equally canon.

Primary canon - The games themselves, including the manuals for older games especially, pictures in guides for primary games
Secondary canon - Text in guides for primary games, obscure/non-Nintendo/edutainment spinoffs
Tertiary canon - Cartoons, SMRPG (due to being stuck in copyright hell), Hotel Mario (due to sheer hate). Things Miyamoto does not or cannot acknowledge the existence of.

A source that is inherently "more canon" than another source should overrule a "less canon" source - Yoshi's Safari, which is primary or secondary canon, overrules the cartoons, which are tertiary canon, on the personalities and abilities of the Koopalings.
Sources at the same level need to be reconciled as normal.

I also agree with Artemendo's theory that canon, as a whole, is mutable and newer sources are to be preferred.

[Artemendo]

Thank you for agreeing with me, and I also like the three-tiered canon, but I have a bit of a differentiation with guides. If a guide provides a picture not in the manual, for example, it is official since it's drawn by the official staff. But the text is not always written by the official staff - but by a special guide team. Those do tend to make stuff up a bit. I would be cautious to trusting guide text if it's the only source for a particular piece of information.

[cheat-master30]

All spinoffs mentioned are by third parties. The Mario Kart arcade game is by Namco, not sure who make Itadaki Street DS, the arcade Mario Parties are by Capcom, many other Japan only games are by companies who aren't technically game development companies, the Mario educational games are by Merit Software, Software Toolworks and Interplay, and various others.

As for what adaptation I meant, the Koopa Bros were from Super Mario Kun, an official manga likely not originally made by Nintendo.

[Sarisa]

Thanks for the info - although that doesn't help me answer my question any, since it's more philosophical. The edutainment games take place on Earth, which inclines me to lump them in with the cartoons as minimally canon.

I haven't played Itadaki Street DS, but since it merges Mario and Dragon Quest characters its canonicity should be less than the SSB series.

I don't know anything about the arcade games.

If Nintendo chooses to take some element from a minimally canon source and incorporate it into a canon work, I'd say that only makes that element canon, not the whole source.

[PDoogan]

Games. Games were the original platform and have the closest connection to Nintendo

[SMBBQ]

I agree with PDoogan here. On SMRPG, I don't know why it shouldn't be more canon than, say, NSMB. Just sayin'.

[Sarisa]

Aug 19, 2010 14:36:53 GMT -5 SMBBQ said:

On SMRPG, I don't know why it shouldn't be more canon than, say, NSMB. Just sayin'.

In a better world, it should be. But, IIRC, SMRPG is tied up in a long-running copyright dispute and Nintendo has to write off all the locations introduced in the game. They can never appear again and from Nintendo's point of view have to be treated as if they never were; they are un-locations, un-characters, and un-canon.

[Artemendo]

Aug 19, 2010 14:49:52 GMT -5 Sarisa said:

Aug 19, 2010 14:36:53 GMT -5 SMBBQ said:

On SMRPG, I don't know why it shouldn't be more canon than, say, NSMB. Just sayin'.

In a better world, it should be. But, IIRC, SMRPG is tied up in a long-running copyright dispute and Nintendo has to write off all the locations introduced in the game. They will never appear again and from Nintendo's point of view have to be treated as if they never were; they are un-locations, un-characters, and un-canon.

I hate people who quote stuff and say "THIS", but allow me to say:
THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I just couldn't put it into words before. Thank you so much, sarisa!

[SMBBQ]

Whatever. I still think we should take it as canon, though.

[EpicGyllynn]

1st Tier of Canon:Mario Platformers - Definitive Canon.
2nd Tier of Canon:Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi, and Sports Games - Mostly Canon. Minor discrepancies with the Main series should be overlooked.
3rd Tier of Canon:Various obscure Spin-offs, Sub-series(Yoshi, Wario, DKC, etc.), and games produced by 3rd Parties - Only Canon if it conforms with the above Tiers.

Everything that occurs in the Platformers is Canon, the only exception to this Rule, being In-game things. As for the other Tiers, they are Canon as long as they don't contradict the Main series of games, but minor things such as Super Mario RPG's Map depicting the Kingdom as a Ring of Islands should be overlooked, because the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi Maps overrule it(As they are 2nd Tier games). One example of a 2nd Tier game being ruled out of Canon is Super Mario Strikers, as the Characters personalities contradict the Platformers, and other RPGs.

[Sarisa]

Thanks, EpicGyllynn. That's my primary/secondary/tertiary canon list, except explained in a more coherent fashion (SMRPG falls into the third-party creation subgroup of tertiary canon, although it's a special case). Where do game manuals and game guides fall? Same tier as the attached game, or one tier below?

[cheat-master30]

So where do non game adaptations come in this? Fourth tier?

[Artemendo]

I guess they fall under the "Not Canon But Fun To Talk About" tier.

[PDoogan]

Aug 19, 2010 14:49:52 GMT -5 Sarisa said:

In a better world, it should be. But, IIRC, SMRPG is tied up in a long-running copyright dispute and Nintendo has to write off all the locations introduced in the game. They can never appear again and from Nintendo's point of view have to be treated as if they never were; they are un-locations, un-characters, and un-canon.

I agree with this completely, but one thing that always puzzled me was the SMRPG enemy shaman. Shamans have appeared in every Paper Mario game and played a rather large role in SPM. As far as I know, shamans first appeared in SMRPG, so how did this one enemy manage to get around all the copyright laws?

[Sarisa]

Aug 19, 2010 18:14:07 GMT -5 PDoogan said:

I agree with this completely, but one thing that always puzzled me was the SMRPG enemy shaman. Shamans have appeared in every Paper Mario game and played a rather large role in SPM. As far as I know, shamans first appeared in SMRPG, so how did this one enemy manage to get around all the copyright laws?

I don't know. Perhaps they were a Nintendo contribution, or perhaps they're too stereotypical for Square to be able to claim (unlike Geno, which is distinctive).

[Koopalmier]

How could SMRPG be considered non-canon by Nintendo ? Sure, the game is nothing like a good Mairo game (sigh), but Mario Strikers, Mario Party and Mario vs. DK are much worst cases. And a part of SMRPG was even mentionned in Paper Mario ("the last party was fun!" -> a party was made at the end of SMRPG, like at the end of PM). Oh, and Mario Superstar Baseball's bio for Peach says she's been kidnapped no less than 10 times prior to the events of the game (although I don't consider it as being really part of the canon, because of Baby characters)). That's:
- Super Mario Bros.
- Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
- Super Mario Bros. 3
- Super Mario World
- Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
- Super Mario 64
- Paper Mario
- Super Mario Sunshine
- Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

If the spin-offes see SMRPG as canon, why wouldn't the same apply for the main series ?


Anyway, here's what I think of the subject. In order from more canon to less canon. Under the line, I don't consider that as being canon at all:
- Japanese games & manuals
- English games & old manuals(but we use the English names, obviously, but it's the US version who made the "Mario is from Brooklyn" stupidity, and that gave much fury to Fawful when he doesn't really have any originally ; if they didn't made such major changes it could've been as canon as the original games, but for now it's more like "original version + American sauce")
- English recent manuals
-----------------------------------------
- Obscure games nobody cares about (Hotel Mario is not canon because it's obscure. Yoshi's Island DS has much more chances to be canon...)
- Super Mario-kun
- The awful cartoons
- The awful animes
- American websites (seriously.)

As for the actual material...
- Main series games
- RPG spin-offes (as much SMRPG as PM or M&L2)
- Mario Kart, Mario Tennis, Mario Golf
---------------------------------------------------
- Mario Basbeall, Mario Strikers, Mario Party
- Mario vs. Donkey Kong series
- Cameo or parodying appearances in other series or media
- Prima Guides
- Mangas, animated series, movies

[Sarisa]

Aug 19, 2010 22:07:12 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

How could SMRPG be considered non-canon by Nintendo ? Sure, the game is nothing like a good Mario game (sigh), but Mario Strikers, Mario Party and Mario vs. DK are much worst cases. And a part of SMRPG was even mentionned in Paper Mario ("the last party was fun!" -> a party was made at the end of SMRPG, like at the end of PM). Oh, and Mario Superstar Baseball's bio for Peach says she's been kidnapped no less than 10 times prior to the events of the game (although I don't consider it as being really part of the canon, because of Baby characters)). That's:
- Super Mario Bros.
- Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
- Super Mario Bros. 3
- Super Mario World
- Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
- Super Mario 64
- Paper Mario
- Super Mario Sunshine
- Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
- Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time

The line could, in retrospect, also be read as one of the ten captures being the one in the past in Partners in Time. While they shouldn't have intended that at release, it is a legitimate reading now.

If the spin-offs see SMRPG as canon, why wouldn't the same apply for the main series?

Because SMRPG is un-canon, in the 1984 sense. (If you've never read 1984, you should. Not only is it one of the great dystopias of English literature, it's usually read in schools so references to it are very common.) Nintendo can't get away with using much at all from the game, and so has to proceed as if the material introduced in the game (the world map, the species, the characters) never existed. We, in turn, need to acknowledge that SMRPG is a palimpsest - it was a great text but everything in it was erased and overwritten. Hence its relegation to the bottom of the canon hierarchy, along with other third-party spinoffs and cartoons.