Lands of the Mushroom World -- where are they?

[Sarisa]

I played a lot of SMB3 as a kid. In fact, I'm a member of the rather small generation for whom SMB3, while not my first Mario game, was the one that defined "Mario." (We slot in between the much larger group that discovered a new genre with SMB and the younger siblings who first discovered Mario on the family SNES.) So I've always wondered where the "lands" from SMB3 fit on the map. Thanks to SMA4, we have a lovely map of all the lands: www.mariowiki.com/images/d/d0/MushroomWorld_SMA4.gif What isn't illustrated, obviously, is Peach's domain; nor are there any obvious connecting features like the mountain range on each side of the PM1/2 maps.

So, where are these "lands"? The obvious conclusion is "southeast of Rogueport." Most of the lands are islands in the "East Mushroom Sea." PM1 and PiT agree that Peach's domain has land to its east, and the conclusion of this board is that Rogueportland is east of the PM1 map for various good reasons. The PM2 map shows land east beyond the Rogueportland map. East Rogueportland is temperate and grassy and could easily border SMB3's Grass Land. Alternately, the SMA4 map shows a small indentation in Grass Land's southeastern coast that resembles the PM2 map; Rogueport could lie there, although that implies that Grass Land is huge (as Poshley Heights is three days' travel away by train but southeast of Rogueport), so it's easier to assume the shape is a coincidence and Rogueportland is an ungoverned territory between the Mushroom Kingdom and Grass Land.

This leads to the interesting observation that while human-ruled states lie to the west (MK) and east (Grass Land) of Rogueport, Rogueport itself has no ruler nor any obvious human presence at all. A distant possibility is that the human-ruled kingdoms are over 1000 years old, and the Kingdom of Rogueport fell with the old city. However, on Earth it would be most unlikely for an empire held together by a small elite of foreigners to survive for 1000 years; the usual life expectancy for such a setup is 200 years or less, although the apparent inability of the natives to form large states would let the human empires survive much longer. What happened to the hypothetical Kingdom of Rogueport?

[PDoogan]

I don't think there's ever been a game that shows the relation of any country to any other country...except for Superstar Saga. (If you go to the top of Mt. Hoohoo, you can see the mushroom castle far off in the distance.)

One thing that I have noticed though, is the fact that the shape of SMA4's Grassland looks very similar to the landmass that is the Mushroom Kingdom in Paper Mario. Whether this was done on purpose or not is unknown.

[Sarisa]

It might be intentional, but they're still impossible to properly reconcile, since Grass Land has a king who doesn't even mention Peach. Everything outside the cartoons that I've seen implies that Grass Land and the Mushroom Kingdom are separate.

[Koopalmier]

Should be mentionned that the Mushroom Kingdom is a "gate" to the Mushroom World. As in, you need to stop by the Mushroom Kingdom to get to the SMB3 map. And Grass Land looks connected to the land (or it's a really big island, meh). So it logically means Grass Land neightbords (is that even a word ?) the Mushroom Kingdom. But we know there's Rogueport right next to the MK. So, yeah, the idea that it's south-east of Picaly makes sense IMO.

I think that the ancient city between the MK and Grass Land was inhabited by humans at some point, but it got destroyed and nobody wanted to live there for hundreds of years, except thiefs who used the ruined place as an hiding location, until it became a town of thieves.


What we know, by the way:
- The SMRPG map IS the Mushroom Kingdom. The English version's "Mushroom Kingdom" is called "Mushroom Castle" in the Japanese version. Also, the map works like "north is at the upper right".
- Yoster Island, and thus Dino Land, are in a sea right next to the MK. Proved in both SMRPG and PiT.
- Rogueport is heavily hinted to be at the east of the MK, because of the mountain chain linking them and because Peach was going around the Mushroom Kingdom before stopping at Rogueport.
- Grass Land and thus the SMB3 map are theorized to be at the south-east of the PM2 map.
- We don't know in which way do the NSMB and NSMBW worlds go, but both end up at Bowser's Castle (and the first two worlds seem to be the same as in NSMB).
- Jewerly Land can be gotten to on foot, so it has to be around the MK too.
- The Beanbean Kingdom is right next to the MK and another part of land. One could theorize it's at the south of the SMRPG map.
- The Lost Levels starts at Mario's house, apparently. Its location never changed, only the surroundings did (even being shown as an island in Wrecking Crew 94). It's close enought o Toad Town and Peach's Castle.
- In Dr Mario 64, we go from Mario's house, to a forest, to a sea, to an island. They seem to be running straight.
- In Mario Superstar Baseball, there's a jungle between Peach's Castle and Bowser's. And there's a desert nearby Bowser's castle.
- Bowser's Castle was on a rock structure shaped like Bowser's head when it was on Jewerly Land. It was moved to next to Toad Town alongside the structure.
- Bowser's Castle was moved again during the credits of SMRPG.
- Bowser's Castle's location is still unclear as its surroudnings and the castle itself change a lot but the latest we know is it's at the south-east of the MK.
- There are mountains behind Peach's Castle.
- It is a theory Seaside Town became the new Toad Town after it and the castle were moved, probably to avoid getting too close to Bowser. The town seems to have changed location again in PM3DS, now being at the north of the mountains chain linking the PM and TTYD maps.

[Sarisa]

"Neighbors" is a word, yes.

If the Mushroom World has standard geography (there aren't underground kingdoms and such), the easiest way to interpret "gate" is that, since Mario most recently lived west of Toad Town in the southwestern Mushroom Kingdom, the logical route to the Mushroom Lands in the far east is through the Mushroom Kingdom.

Some thoughts on your very helpful summary of our geographic knowledge:

- SMRPG is still contentious, although if the whole map needs to be tilted 45° it's much easier to reconcile with everything else.
- Did Mario ride Yoshi to Jewelry Land?
- At the implied latitudes of the RPG games, it's very hard to have a jungle directly between Peach's Castle and Bowser's Castle. Peach definitely lives in the north temperate zone, and it's odd to travel "directly" south to a tropical jungle, then north to a subtropical desert (many deserts are subtropical). A desert on the east side of a landmass is particularly unlikely in the tropics, because the trade winds blow rain east to west.

[Koopalmier]

Mario's planet HAS fantastic stuff though. That includes weird climate zones. Plus there are definitely lots of things between Peach's Castle and that jungle (and between that jungle and Bowser's Castle).

And, yes, Mario and Yoshi traveled to the Jewelry Kingdom on foot.

[PDoogan]

Sept 28, 2011 15:38:22 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

And, yes, Mario and Yoshi traveled to the Jewelry Kingdom on foot.

They could have used warp pipes.

I tend to disregard SMRPG's map do to the fact that it's kind of floating in nowhere and you can't really judge the distances between landmarks

[Koopalmier]

Sept 28, 2011 16:40:43 GMT -5 PDoogan said:

Sept 28, 2011 15:38:22 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

And, yes, Mario and Yoshi traveled to the Jewelry Kingdom on foot.

They could have used warp pipes.

I tend to disregard SMRPG's map do to the fact that it's kind of floating in nowhere and you can't really judge the distances between landmarks

Actually you can see Toad Town and Peach's Castle from Booster's Tower.

[EpicGyllynn]

I've always believed that the most of the "Kingdoms" of Super Mario Bros. 3 (w/ the exception of the Dark Land and Sky Land, which I believe belong to the Koopa and Nimbus Kingdoms respectively. As for the location, I'd say that Grass Land and Desert Hill are a part of the continental Mushroom Kingdom, making up the eaststern part of Mushroom Plains and DryDry Desert; So we agree as far as geography (east of PM
Map, south of PM:TYD Map), but disagree on their realtuon to the Mushroom Kingdom.

[Clive Koopa]

My theories are that Giant Land is in a northern portion of the Mushroom World, Ice Land is probably in the south and includes Frappe Snowland, Shiver City, Cool, Cool Mountain and Snowman's Land. Desert Land may be part of the Koopa Kingdom as it is also known as the Koopahari Desert. Sky Land is probably another term for Nimbus Land. Water Land is part of an archipelago of islands what include Vibe Island, Crescent Island, Wet-Dry Island and others.