"Earth" and "Mushroom World"

[supermariobrothers]

Sorry if someone already made a thread about this, I couldn't find it.

Many fans (such as the mario wiki) seem to come to a conclusion that there are two different worlds: one that resembles our own, and one that most of the Mario games take place in. However, I disagree, and here's why.

The only media that have ever referenced such a concept are the American cartoons and the 1993 live action movie, and possibly the 1986 anime movie. However, most of these are non-canon, or at least on the lowest level of canon. There's nothing in any of the actual games to support two different planets/dimensions/whatever. My theory is that the Mario games take place on an alternate version of Earth.

We'll start with the first Mario game ever, which is Donkey Kong. Mario isn't Mario yet, he has no name (referred to as "Jumpman") and has no backstory besides the fact that he wants to save Pauline (who iirc didn't have a name either) from Donkey Kong.

Most Mario fans know the story about how Mario got his name. It was Nintendo of America's idea but was eventually accepted as canon and approved by Miyamoto that his name would be Mario, and his brother would be named Luigi. Mario and Luigi are both Italian names, and starting with the Nintendo 64 era they have stereotypical Italian accents, rather than Brooklyn accents like they had in the cartoons/movie. So from this information we can gather that Italy exists in the Mario universe, or at least some sort of equivalent to it.

This next part is interesting. For a while I thought that Mario living in New York was a backstory created by Nintendo of America that wasn't relevant to any of my games. However, Miyamoto himself admitted in an Iwata Asks interview (I don't remember which one) that the arcade game Mario Bros. takes place in the sewers of New York. So, to clarify, New York and Italy are in the Mario universe. However, we still don't know if Mario was actually living in New York; he was just there for the duration of the game Mario Bros. But considering their occupation is plumbing (which is backed up by Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga) I'm guessing they probably did.

Nintendo will probably never clarify this, so I'm just going to guess: When the stork delivered Mario and Luigi from who-knows-where to their parents, they lived in a small village with mushroom houses. This would seem to indicate that it's the Mushroom Kingdom, but that wouldn't explain their Italian accents unless they moved to Italy very early in their lives. It could go either way, but I'm going to go ahead and guess they were born in Italy, and then at some point later moved to New York, and then to the Mushroom Kingdom when Super Mario Bros. takes place (if that's even the first game with Peach and Bowser chronologically, it's impossible to tell).

Additionally, in the Mario games that have voice acting, (at least from what I've seen) the characters speak English in all versions of the game, even in the Japanese version (see Mario Sunshine and Peach's letter in Mario Galaxy, as well as other games with the occasional exclamations that are also in English). This means it's not just a case of translating a language into the local language of the region the game is being released in (example, an anime that takes place in Japan but is dubbed in English for an American audience; canonically, they would be speaking Japanese). What I gather from this is that English is the language spoken in the Mushroom Kingdom. And if you add into account Peach's/the Toads' accents (and Bowser even though he's not from the MK), I'm going to guess that the Mushroom Kingdom is sort of a mixture between the United States and the United Kingdom (figurehead monarch, chancellor/prime minister type guy, etc). There's also the fact that nearly all main Mario games have English titles in the international versions, as well as the entirety of the original Super Mario Bros.

One last thing. In Banjo-Kazooie, the ship in Rusty Bucket Bay says Twycross, England on it (which is where Rare's headquarters are located). As most of you know the Banjo games presumably take place in the same universe as the Mario/Donkey Kong games since Banjo was in Diddy Kong Racing, however it could have been possibly retconned due to Microsoft's acquisition of Rare and the fact that Diddy Kong Racing DS has Banjo and Conker removed. So that's still up in the air, but I decided to include it anyway since it's another reference to a "real world" location.

Of course these are just theories. Unfortunately we'll most likely never get official answers as story doesn't seem to be an important aspect to Nintendo for the Mario series, aside from the RPGs and DK continuity (thanks to Rare).

[cheat-master30]

There's something you touched on which is very interesting, the assumption that the Mushroom World is an alternate dimension. It's never been backed up in game much, has it? It seems entirely something taken from cartoons, anime series and movies more than the games themselves. Makes me wonder whether Earth and Mushroom World are in the same universe, and pipes simply act as fast travel.

I wouldn't say it's the same planet though (although that would make WarioWare a lot simpler), because the Mushroom 'World' is both massive and different enough it wouldn't fit on a real world globe alongside the actual countries.

[kingkoopa]

Not only are the Mario, Donkey Kong, and Banjo Kazooie Worlds connected. Some could argue that the Sonic world (and by extension Sega World) is connected to Mario's world in some way as well. What, no one has played Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games or Sonic and Sega's All Star Racing with Banjo Kazooie?

[Koopalmier]

Aug 20, 2011 3:04:12 GMT -5 supermariobrothers said:

So from this information we can gather that Italy exists in the Mario universe, or at least some sort of equivalent to it.

It seems pretty obvious from Mario Party 7 that Mario's planet has real-world counterpart locations.

This next part is interesting. For a while I thought that Mario living in New York was a backstory created by Nintendo of America that wasn't relevant to any of my games. However, Miyamoto himself admitted in an Iwata Asks interview (I don't remember which one) that the arcade game Mario Bros. takes place in the sewers of New York.

Nope, he said that the sewers in Mario Bros. were based on NYC's.

What I gather from this is that English is the language spoken in the Mushroom Kingdom.

Toad Town's name is witten as "Kinoko Town" in Paper Mario though (on the giant board at the entrance of the town). I personally assume Japanese is the main language in the MK but English is part of it, and used for particular occasions.


Don't forget that:
- In the WarioWare series, the planet is very likely an alternate Earth. There's lots of American and Japanese influence in the series, from afar (and on a map in Wario's house) the planet is definitely Earth, and Diamond City is very American-ish or Japanese-ish.
- In Luigi's Mansion, there's a globe in of the rooms, that depicts Earth.
- An official guide for Super Mario World says Dinosaur Land is in the Pacific.
- The planet is apparently Earth in Donkey Kong: Jungle Swing (or something like that, never cared much about that series) as well.
- The planet is clearly called Earth in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (in The Moon's description on the map) and in Super Mario Galaxy (in Rosalian's own words).
- Many games have counterparts to real-life locations (mostly Mario Party 7).
- There are French, Russian, Italian, German and American stereotypes in the Mario world.


but also

- If Fahr Outpost is part of Russia and Dry Dry Desert is part of Arabia, the map of Mario's world has to be really twisted then.
- The layout of the continents on Mario's planet are nothing like Earth's in Mario Party 3, Mario Party 7 and Super Mario Galaxy 2.
- Many locations don't seem to be the counterpart of a real-life location.
- The solar system is very different from Earth's.


I don't like the idea of "alternate Earths". For me, if a planet is called Earth and has similar cultures to our planet, it's just another planet that shares some parts in history with our's, including the name.

[Vent]

Donkey Kong: Jungle Swing (or something like that, never cared much about that series)

It was "Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast", Dr. Ignorant.

Anyway, let's throw some other food for thought into the wind.

*We know that Mario Is Missing! and Mario's Time Machine both center around Earth geography and history. MIM! even goes so far as to say Bowser used a portal system to go to the real Earth and build a fortress in Antarctica. MTM on the other hand doesn't make any mention of such a thing, though it's probably best not to quote me on that. We also know that both of these games were licensed educational games made by some other company and are generally ignored by Nintendo these days, so their 'canonocity' is up in the air.

*We know that other characters besides Mario and Luigi have stereotypical accents of various ethnicity. Wario, Waluigi, Toadsworth, Chef Torte, Prof. Kolorado, the Koopa Bros., Cork, Cask, Flavio, Cortez, Dupree (though his is probably fake), the Bob-Ombs of Fhar Outpost, Admiral Bobbery, Pa-Patch, Broque Monsieur, Broque Madam, and I think a few others I missed all have them. Most of these characters aren't even human, so I don't think you really need an explanation for why Mario and Luigi are stereotypical Italians.

*We know that Donkey Kong was remade as a Game Boy game where Mario was named Mario. This game takes place across a number of ambiguously named locations which appear to be based on various real-world locations such as New York and Egypt. Keeping in context, most if not all of the enemies in this game are cartoony stylized animals such as Ladybugs and Walruses. Presumably this game is also an expanded retelling of the original DK's story, as the ending appears to show Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom eating a Super Mushroom for the first time ever. Since the game abruptly cuts to this scene right after beating DK, we have no way of knowing how Mario and Pauling got there or if its even connected to the rest of the game's setting.

*We know that you can catch a partial glimpse of Mario's planet in both SMG and SMG2. The planet does look atmospherically similar to Earth, but aside from that there's not really much else to go on.

*We know that all four Mario sports RPGs (Golf GBC, Tennis GBC, Golf Advance and Tennis Advance) center around casts of cartoony humans who treat the Mario characters as legendary beings. The settings of all of these games are implied to be a vast distance away from Mario's world if not on another plane of existence entirely, going so far as to use magical portals to reach the Mushroom Kingdom at the end of each game (MG and MT both used rainbows and MGA used a pillar of light). Depsite this, the main setting still looks rather Mario-styled and there's references to common Mushroom Kingdom creatures and objects all over the place (you can get 1-Up Mushrooms and random messages about Mario characters popping up when you open a locker in MG, for example). This one kinda throws a monkey wrench into the whole mix.

*We know that Mario and co. are somehow able to make public appearances in various real-world broadcasts and events, such as Mario being interviews by an actual radio personality on the first episode of BS Super Mario Collection. I know this is supposed to be silly and fun but it does remind me of companies such as Disney and Warner Bros. permeating the notion that their cartoon characters inhabit the same world as us, so the same could probably hold true for the Mario cast.

[1up]

I think the nature of both Earth and the Mushroom World are left ambiguous enough where either theory could be accepted.

I grew up liking the cartoons, the comics, and, yes, even the movie. So, I've always gone with the concept that the Mario Bros. are from New York and stumbled upon the Mushroom Kingdom.

Also, I'm fairly certain that I read from either an instruction booklet, or some kind of official source that was game-related that said that they found a pipe that took them to the Mushroom Kingdom. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read this... If all the American-made products say they came from Brooklyn, then that idea had to have come from some kind of official source. It couldn't have just popped up out of nowhere.

Also, let's not forget Mario is Missing. That game has pipes that lead from Earth to the Mushroom World in it. Sure, it's kind of a crappy game with questionable canonicity. But, still...

[rhinotaur]

What about Mario Party 8? That game had a realistic setting that just happens to be populated by Mario characters and you can even see the real Earth in the background of one game. Its not canon, but its on Earth for sure.

[1up]

Here we go! This is a direct quote from The Official Guide to the World's Most Popular Plumber - MARIO (2nd Edition Revised & Updated):

"Mario finally got top billing in 1983's Mario Bros. Mario was no longer a carpenter, but rather a plumber who battled creatures infesting the New York sewer system".

There you have it. From there, it can be assumed that after traversing the sewers in Mario Bros., they stumbled upon a special Warp Pipe that led them to the Mushroom Kingdom and started the events of Super Mario Bros.

[Sarisa]

One thing to watch out for with linguistic notes is translation conventions. For instance, in Japanese anime dubbed for young American audiences, it's common to replace a Kansai accent with a Southern US accent, simply because both are common but distinctive regional accents. So when we see Japanese or English, that doesn't necessarily mean that the characters are speaking Japanese or English any more than Frodo and Bilbo spoke English. It could mean that the "translators" are simply taking advantage of our conventions to try to retain some information in the original.

I don't think the Mushroom Kingdom is meant to be on Earth; Earth as we know it is a very restrictive setting that can't reasonably support Marioverse physics or biology, let alone the heavy usage of explicit magic. "Alternate dimension" gives it enough distance to maintain suspension of disbelief, while the events of SPM can be pulled in as evidence that cross-dimensional travel (via warp pipe or other means) is possible and one accessible alternate dimension is Earth.

[Vent]

@ 1up:
OK, then. Now explain how it is that Mario & Luigi were born in the Mushroom Kingdom in Yoshi's Island and implied to have lived there throughout their childhood in Partners in Time.

@ Sarisa:
Cartoons such as WB's Looney Tunes take place on Earth and those depict all the manner of crazy physical law-breaking. Comic books such as Spider-Man take place in the supposedly "real" world and yet scientific impossibilites occur almost all the time. Even though it's a depiction of the real world, it's still a work of fiction, and thus events which are only fictionally possible can still occur.

[1up]

Simple. Kamek and the Koopas wouldn't stop coming after the Mario Bros. and his parents (since Kamek saw the vision that they would cause Bowser a lot of trouble in the future). The parents thought that it was too dangerous to allow them to continue to live in Mushroom Kingdom and sent them off to Earth (or moved there with them, whichever one). They eventually returned, during the events of Super Mario Bros., and fulfilled the prophecy.

[Vent]

Have I mentioned I REALLY hate that explanation? I see it belted around almost constantly. Is there any REASON to have such a heavily-layered backstory for Mario and Luigi? Can't you just say "Mario and Luigi were born in the "Mushroom Kingdom and lived there their entire lives. The End."?


Moreover, I also really hate the idea of there being a "Prophecy" of any sort. This is Mario, not some 80s-era disposable Tolkien-esque fantasy novel. The only time a thematic element like that ever works is when it's part of a self-contained story that doesn't affect the main cast, like in Super Paper Mario (and even that was a bit extreme as far as Mario plots go).

[Sarisa]

Aug 28, 2011 8:58:30 GMT -5 Vent said:

@ Sarisa:
Cartoons such as WB's Looney Tunes take place on Earth and those depict all the manner of crazy physical law-breaking. Comic books such as Spider-Man take place in the supposedly "real" world and yet scientific impossibilites occur almost all the time. Even though it's a depiction of the real world, it's still a work of fiction, and thus events which are only fictionally possible can still occur.

I draw the line somewhere around inventing entirely new landmasses on modern-day, well-explored Earth. There's nowhere to fit the Mushroom Kingdom and surrounding lands on Earth, physically speaking, and it greatly simplifies things to shunt them off into their own dimension, where they can share a planet with DK, Diamond City, etc. It's not like Spider-Man, which takes place in New York City, or even Superman's Metropolis (which is a real place in Illinois, though not much like the comic book version). Mario cannot get lost by taking a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Sure, you can say that it's never explicitly set off Earth, but the only solid references to Earth are in the WarioWare series, which itself has only fragile links to the MK.

Aug 28, 2011 13:58:11 GMT -5 Vent said:

Have I mentioned I REALLY hate that explanation? I see it belted around almost constantly. Is there any REASON to have such a heavily-layered backstory for Mario and Luigi? Can't you just say "Mario and Luigi were born in the "Mushroom Kingdom and lived there their entire lives. The End."?

The only reason it's popular at all is that it is the simplest explanation that reconciles current canon through Partners in Time with classic-era American canon.

The simplest explanation that covers everything is that the Mushroom Kingdom, like Narnia, is in an alternate dimension linked to Earth by portals (except the MK's look like pipes instead of wardrobes or paintings). Bowser knows, or knew, the location of one portal used in the cartoons and edutainment games; Diamond City is built on another portal, which is why its population is mostly human and how Wario got his map of Earth - or, alternately, how Wario and MK symbols reached Diamond City, Earth. Mario doesn't go to Earth because he doesn't have a reason to; his hands are full taking care of disasters in his own world, and he knows that as soon as he leaves for a visit Bowser will kidnap Peach again. Bowser tried to exploit Earth, but concluded that he can't make use of it. Wario can and does exploit Earth for gain (somehow).

There's no concrete reason why the Mushroom Kingdom can't be located in the far reaches of our own universe, but the bizarre nature of MK physics, biology, and astronomy make an alternate dimension simpler, IMO.

[1up]

@ DINOSAUR

Well...

1) It's probably belted around constantly because it makes a lot of sense. And how is "The Mario Bros. were born in the Mushroom Kingdom, then moved to Earth, then returned when they were older" heavily-layered at all...? It's pretty simple, actually.

2) I'm pretty sure there was a prophecy that Kamek foresaw. That's why he tried to kidnap the Mario Bros. when they were infants initially...

[cheat-master30]

There's nowhere to fit the Mushroom Kingdom and surrounding lands on Earth, physically speaking, and it greatly simplifies things to shunt them off into their own dimension

True. But is this a fair complaint? I mean, every series set on 'Earth' adds new fictional countries, towns, cities, islands, etc. Both DC and Marvel's comicverses are alternate versions of Earth, and both arguably add way more stuff to it than's plausible.

As are most film series. The places in James Bond, Jurassic Park, King Kong, et are often not real world locations (at least the supervillain bases in the former) and were just bolted on to the real world map without any logic. You could also theoretically set such a series in the past (Lord of the Rings) or the future (some episodes of Doctor Who).

Do I agree the Mario series is an alternate universe? Yes. Including WarioWare. But it wouldn't really mattr much either way.

Heck, it could be a coincidence. Who's to say the Mushroom World isn't what its inhabitants consider as Earth, in their own dimension? Heck, why do all these 'real world' references have to be real world ones? Earth doesn't magically mean 'this place in all possible universes'. Perhaps the Mushroom World thinks itself is Earth? Earth's name has a whole wikipedia article about it, and considering the root of it came from description of the ground, or maybe our world as a default between heaven and the like in the ancient view of the world, who's to say Toads and other species didn't call their own world the same?

And prophecy? Well to an extent. But not a very complicated one, is it? If we let Mario and Luigi survive, then they'll beat us up for being evil is probably what it means.

[Sarisa]

Aug 28, 2011 15:34:54 GMT -5 cheat-master30 said:

There's nowhere to fit the Mushroom Kingdom and surrounding lands on Earth, physically speaking, and it greatly simplifies things to shunt them off into their own dimension

True. But is this a fair complaint? I mean, every series set on 'Earth' adds new fictional countries, towns, cities, islands, etc. Both DC and Marvel's comicverses are alternate versions of Earth, and both arguably add way more stuff to it than's plausible.

As are most film series. The places in James Bond, Jurassic Park, King Kong, et are often not real world locations (at least the supervillain bases in the former) and were just bolted on to the real world map without any logic. You could also theoretically set such a series in the past (Lord of the Rings) or the future (some episodes of Doctor Who).

Well, it's not just a fictional location or two, it's a large fictional territory with no indication of where it would fit into the real world. Aliahan is in the South Pacific, Latveria is in Eastern Europe, I've personally visited Metropolis, but there is no indication where the Mushroom Kingdom fits.

However, there is nothing suggesting it's not in a cartoony past or future. However, there's nothing suggesting it is, either.

Also, have you seen the argument that the Red Book of Westmarch and the Nemedian Chronicles are two different (and heavily spun) retellings of the same events?

Heck, it could be a coincidence. Who's to say the Mushroom World isn't what its inhabitants consider as Earth, in their own dimension? Heck, why do all these 'real world' references have to be real world ones? Earth doesn't magically mean 'this place in all possible universes'.

I wish you could explain, since I'm not following what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that the MK is on an alternate Earth, so that Wario's map is really a map of his own world?

If we worked hard enough, we might be able to match our various bits of map to Earthly terrain, but it might not work very well.

Perhaps the Mushroom World thinks itself is Earth? Earth's name has a whole wikipedia article about it, and considering the root of it came from description of the ground, or maybe our world as a default between heaven and the like in the ancient view of the world, who's to say Toads and other species didn't call their own world the same?

I can't even follow this. Most languages have a word for "the specific bit of rock that we live on" derived from the word for "ground" or "land," such as 地球 (earth-ball; Sinosphere) and الأرض (the earth; Arabic). However, "Earth," in the sci-fi sense, is restricted to mean the third planet from our sun and no other planet, no matter what the inhabitants call it. I would not at all be surprised if aliens called their planet by a name derived from their word(s) for "ground, land" but we would still call it something different - probably the alien word adapted to our phonology - because the essential function of a proper name is to distinguish a specific object from others of its type.

Now, if you're arguing that there is a mass psychosis in the Mushroom Kingdom causing the inhabitants to believe that their world is actually the same as our Earth despite all evidence to the contrary, your MK is much weirder than mine.

[cheat-master30]

but we would still call it something different - probably the alien word adapted to our phonology - because the essential function of a proper name is to distinguish a specific object from others of its type.

Except one thing... in game, it's never named by a person from this planet or reality. Has there ever been a time in the series where a person from Earth has been a character in the Mario series and referred to the Mushroom World as A and Earth as B? I guess you could argue in a narrative sense that you're meant to assume Earth and real world locales are referring to the actual ones in our world but in theory most Mario characters shouldn't even know there is a planet called Earth that doesn't refer to their world.

[Koopalmier]

My thought:
Earth is a planet. It's our planet. Mario's planet is another planet. It's in our world too. If the Kirby series is in our world, why couldn't it apply to the Mario series too ? (plus, Star Rods link both series).
Mario's planet is called Earth. That's what its inhabitants call it. They don't know about our Earth. They have somewhat similar history and locations, and the same name, but that's as far as it goes. The continents are VERY different, the laws of physics don't work exactly like our's (don't try to know why - if the Kirby series happens in our future, after all...). And there are many, many locations that don't have a counterpart to our Earth. Both planets are not in the same solar system and galaxy, maybe that the Mario series doesn't happen during our current time period either.

However, the canon was different before (it was then retconned). It seems obvious that Mario's planet was, until, say, NSMB, Earth. Only MP3 and MP7 pointed at it not being the case - PM2 too, but the solar system statue in the Shadow Palace is kind of hidden (it shows more planets than our solar system has). Games such as Luigi's Mansion, Mario Sunshie, Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour... had quite realistic locations. Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat showed the planet's not Earth, and the solar system is different, but people may have ignored that.
WarioWare supports it's on Earth and Wario lives there, but there are two theories: Wario moved there (using a Warp Pipe ?), or it's just Mario's planet made to look like Earth to make the series less Mario-ish.
Sure, Earth doesn't have locations like Diamond City or anthro animals, but that's called "artistic freedom".

What Mario's planet is stayed unclear, even recently when we saw Earth in MP8 and MKW, but I think the fact we saw the continents in SMG2 was Nintendo (read: these two guys working at Nintendo who design characters and stuff)'s try to make it clear once and for all that Mario's planet was not Earth.

But, honestly, I still think it's unclear. There being a portal between Mario's Earth and our Earth seems like the best explanation IMO, but I still prefer the theory that Mario's Earth has no relations with our's and we don't know each other, end of story.

As for the Mario Tennis and Golf "human" world, I think it's... laugh at me if you want, I think it's the future Golden Sun world.

[wolley]

Who is to say Diamond city is in the same dimension of (Our) Earth OR mushroom world.
Wario series if FULL of "pocket dimensions" (to give them their generic sci-fi name), including the:
- magical music box in Wario land III
- Bomberman land in Wario Blast (featuring bomberman)
- Television Land in Wario: Master of Disguise
- Shake Dimension in the Ancient Globe in Wario Land: Shake It!

I think Mario and Luigi did leave the Mushroom World, but came back in either Donkey Kong 94' (featuring a lot of Earth locations, but ending in the Mushroom World) or Mario Bros (Shigeru Miyamoto quote)

Question: When was it decided that he was a plumber?

SM: When we first created Donkey Kong, I kind of looked at him as your average, everyday foolish guy. The setting of that game was a construction site, so I kind of matched him with the setting of the game, and decided in that game that he was a carpenter. And then when we made the original Mario Bros. game, that was the first game that had pipes in it, and the enemies would come out of the pipes into this dark area and Mario would try to hit them and knock them out. Looking at the setting of that game, it had the feeling of an underground New York sewer system. And so with the pipes and the idea of it being an underground New York sewer system, I thought what kind of guy would be there working on the pipes? A plumber! So rather than saying Mario was a plumber, really it was a matter of what's his role in the game and what's the setting of the game and kind of occupation would put him in the setting to be doing what he's doing.

I also think that Mario goes back to Earth to get ideas for sport
For example NES Open Tournament golf, where Mario and Luigi play
golf, the levels: Japan, America and the United Kingdom.

How else does he appear to snowboard (SSX on tour) or play street basket ball (NBA Street V3)

[koopaul]

Hey guys. Isn't it just possible that the Marioverse is so fluid that the world they live in changes from game to game?

It can go from a mirrored Earth to an abstract world. The idea that "Earth" and the "Mushroom World" exist is too complicated for Mario. He's never traveled between those two places, its just those two places seem to blur and merge from game to game.