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Post by EpicGyllynn on May 9, 2011 6:02:07 GMT -5
If we know when it started we could use it as a basis for a timeline, but also, how old is the Mushroom World? We know it has to be a couple thousand years at least, but what do you guys think?
P.S. Only two more weeks 'till summer break, and I can start regularly posting again! Super excited!
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Post by Koopalmier on May 9, 2011 12:02:35 GMT -5
It's... kind of hard to know. Well, assuming Rogueport and co. aren't part of the kingdom, then I guess it could be... I don't know, there's only a single big city (Mushroom City), everything else is just villages, and there aren't many temples either. The majority of the kingdom is just rugged, maybe desert land. They don't have video game arcades yet, though, and still use vapor-powered trains. On the other side, the kingdom's filled with very hi-tech technology (assuming Blocks are machines, and Warp Pipes are teleporters), which could be from an ancient civilization (*cough*Ancients*cough*).
But, although they lack many modern stuff like video games and electric trains, they do have modern cars and buses, theaters, computers... The kingdom apparently has a very modern part (Mushroom City) and everything else is somewhat rustic.
To guess how old the kingdom is, we should see what real-world country it's the closest to (then we could make comparisons). But I suck at geography and history. Any intelligent person around here ?
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Post by Sarisa on May 9, 2011 16:02:08 GMT -5
Hmm. Modern things concentrated in the capital is a common pattern in countries that are just beginning to modernize. It didn't happen in the US because the capital and the major commercial cities are different, and it didn't happen in the first countries to modernize because modern technology was introduced piecemeal, but IIRC it happened in Japan in the 1890s, and it happened in Africa in the mid-20th century. A lack of cities, with villages only despite a central government and available farmland (the southwestern MK is mostly hills covered in temperate forests - poor farmland but usable, like the southeast US), suggests something like a mix between 19th century China and Russia; a backward society with a vast majority of very poor peasants out in the countryside, who deliver their surplus to their lords in Mushroom City, market towns that handle the flow of grain and cloth to the cities and tools and complex manfactures to the countryside, and one great capital where the lords support a city of servants, luxury-manufacturers, and everything the latter two groups need (in other words, a full city). Peach may be a rare example of a local lord that lives in her own domain, with her manor seat at Toad Town.
Africa south of the Sudan is also a land of few and small cities before European colonization, but I don't understand African history well; my impression is that the underlying cause is an absolute lack of sufficient surplus to support cities and the organizational difficulties posed by lack of writing.
Now, I'm not a history major, so I'm sure I've made at least one major error there - if multiethnic settlements were common, I would lean towards a more Indian pattern.
Edit: The problem is that not much in the current state of the MK points at the antiquity of the state - looking at Russia and China, you could take a stab at 500 years, plus or minus 300 or so. States with that sort of constitution don't last indefinitely (well, with the same structures).
Another confounding factor is the sheer destruction to which Peach's domain is regularly exposed. It was simply destroyed about 25 years before the present in PiT (since nothing altered in the present either before or after dealing with the Shroobs, something would have had identical effects or they're in a stable time loop and we didn't know it before PiT), razed again in SMB, then took additional damage in PM, SMG, M&L3, NSMB, and NSMBWii. As far as modern infrastructure is concerned, Peach's domain is a third world country - if you want it you build and defend it yourself, because the government can't reliably provide it. I'm not saying that Peach's government is oppressive or corrupt, but you have to admit that it simply cannot promise 10 years of working electricity anywhere.
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Post by Koopalmier on May 9, 2011 16:24:29 GMT -5
It may be interesting to note that, even though there doesn't seem to be any racism in the Mushroom Kingdom, every village mainly hosts a single species (see Toad Town, Koopa Village...), like if those were different ethnic groups within the same country (and you could even say that the kingdom's in a constant ethnic war between the Toads of Toad Town and the Koopas of Bowser's Castle, if the concept of the Koopa Kingdom was scrapped or forgotten).
The Mushroom Kingdom doesn't seem to have any poor people, though. They don't have a lot of technology but in Mushroom City (which is apparently the economic capital), but they don't seem to have any money problem. Apparently, the lack of technology may just come from the fact the valor of the Mushroom Coin decreases to ridiculous levels when Peach is kidnapped (because everyone's panicking), which hurts the economy.
I think the "lords" here are the ethnic chiefs. Mayor Penguin, whoever are the mayors of Koopa Village and Goomba Village (maybe Koopa Koot and Goompapa ?), Bowser, Wise Wisterwood...
Which also makes me think about something (although it's off-topic). Maybe the Koopa Kingdom existed before (as Dark Land) but the economy completely collapsed (probably due to the place being a giant, rugged, lava-filled badland, and due to Bowser using tons of tanks and ships to beat Mario in Super Mario Bros. 3, to the point of ruining his own land) and the Koopa tribe just moved to the Mushroom Kingdom and Peach somehow accepted it.
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Post by Sarisa on May 9, 2011 16:45:15 GMT -5
*sigh* You did have to place the fact of monoethnic settlements and entire monoethnic regions front and center, didn't you? Now my mental Mushroom Kingdom model looks almost exactly like a piece of stereotypical Africa! Got any books on African history handy?
When do you see Mario go off into the farm fields? Mario only visits racetracks, manor seats, active battlefields, and fortifications. That's where the poverty is, not Toad Town (which in PM and M&L3 would have been swept for poor people anyhow to look good for the visiting dignitaries).
It takes more than money to buy a modernized society; look at RL Nigeria or RL Iran. Heck, RL Saudi Arabia.
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Post by cheat-master30 on May 9, 2011 17:41:56 GMT -5
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Post by cheat-master30 on May 9, 2011 17:43:13 GMT -5
Oh, and he does visit poor areas. Like this cheerful place:  |
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Post by Sarisa on May 9, 2011 18:21:19 GMT -5
It would be nice to get a definitive answer as to whether Rogueport is in the MK or not. Come to think of it, Rogueport is the only truly multiethnic settlement we've seen, as befits its status as a true city rather than a manor seat (Toad Town) or village (everything else).
Village chiefs as heads of the local subsistence farmers is another African element, but it works pretty well. The more evidence you bring up, the more the MK looks less like a feudal despotism and more like a tribal empire held together by a human stratum at the top. Since the government has been thoroughly captured by the largest ethnicity, the Toads, it's not hard to imagine the grievances of the Goombas and Koopas that are being systematically excluded from power beyond their own villages.
If you think about it, every race is represented in the Koopa Troop - except humans, the current ruling race, Toads, who dominate the government, and Yoshis, who have their own islands and don't interact much with the wider world. It says something for the legitimacy of human rule in general and Peach's rule in particular that Bowser hasn't managed to start a race war.
The Wiggler Family, as written, requires motorized transport to work. They're truck farmers, but truck farming relies on being very close to a town full of people who don't grow their own vegetables. The Wiggler Family is close to precisely nowhere and nothing. How do they get their produce to Toad Town? Kart? Farm truck? Where are the rest of the vehicles on the roads of the RPG!MK?
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Post by EpicGyllynn on May 9, 2011 21:21:50 GMT -5
I don't think the Mushroom Kingdom has remained largely rural because of poverty, they just choose to keep it that way; Also, the leaders of the various towns and villages never really struck me as "Lords," or "Nobility" of any kind, just Mayors/Chief elected by the locals. Here's a good question, "Is the Mushroom Kingdom an Absolute Monarchy, or a Constitutional one?"
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Post by Sarisa on May 9, 2011 22:32:29 GMT -5
Answer: Until we see evidence to the contrary, absolute. Legally absolute monarchs can have powerful traditions, powerful advisors, and little personal power. More importantly, absolute or absolute-in-theory monarchy is what most of the past lived under. Constitutions are not very fairy-tale-like.
Without inhuman psychology (which, admittedly, is very possible in the MK) and truly amazing transportation technology (which isn't so much) you're not going to see an area that is both wealthy and voluntarily rural. High transportation costs and low concentration of ideas make rural areas backwaters across the real world.
Peach's domain is sounding more and more like a premodern African empire - it's loosely governed and Peach extracts little surplus, so the peasants under their village and tribal chiefs (who govern the villages in the Mushroom Kingdom's name) do reasonably well. Land is abundant, and the population kept down through destructive warfare rather than famine. Peach's Castle is what Peach spends much of the wealth she gathers on, especially since it needs repairs so often; it's obvious she doesn't support much of an army beyond a few ceremonial guards and two superheroes, and while her castle is nice she doesn't live in ostentatious luxury. There's no visible industrialization, and the urban population is too small for much of a service industry, so by default the average subject of Princess Peach is a peasant somewhere far off the dirt paths between major villages.
Edit: what I meant to say, but didn't get around to doing, is that Peach's subjects would be reasonably well-off by the standards of, say, the 17th century. They don't live in Ethiopian poverty. The average Toad makes the equivalent of US$1750 per year. That doesn't mean the Toad could buy modern conveniences, but sufficient food to sustain life, two outfits, and small luxuries like tea are within reach. The Mushroom Kingdom, if it were real, would be a little richer than the average Sub-Saharan African country today.
Edit 2: The cruel truth is that, in any realistic and human-like economy, an agrarian country is, by modern standards, desperately poor. Any agrarian country. If technology is advanced enough to provide tractors and combines that allow a single farmer to farm enough land to be well-off by modern standards, the country is no longer agrarian!
Edit 3: Outside the Americas and Australia, a country isn't a slate that can be swept clean of its previous inhabitants and overwritten by new ones with a new culture (something Koopalmier probably doesn't need me to say). The Mushroom Kingdom, with its multiracial composition and highly distinct elite class of humans, implies a pre-existing population conquered and united by a single tribe, after the manner of a Middle Eastern/African empire or the empires of antiquity (although IMO an African or Turkic empire is a better parallel). The underlying structure most likely predates the state and would take a concerted effort to alter even if the Mushroom Kingdom were overthrown.
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Post by EpicGyllynn on May 10, 2011 14:59:10 GMT -5
Wait a minute, isn't most of the Mushroom World rural, barren, or a combination of the two? Look at Sarasa Land, BeanBean Kingdom, Koopa Kingdom, etc. Aside from a few modern cities (Mushroom City, Diamond City, the city Daisy Circuit from MKWii was in, etc.), and towns/villages, the Mushroom World is mostly countryside.
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Post by Sarisa on May 10, 2011 15:10:20 GMT -5
Every country but small city-states is mostly countryside. The real question is, where do most of the people live and work? Peach's domain appears to consist of precisely one medium-sized town and some ethnic villages, which suggests that her people live out in the fields instead of in the big city.
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Post by Koopalmier on May 10, 2011 17:14:08 GMT -5
I just replayed Paper Mario 2. The Mushroom Kingdom is referenced multiple times, and it's clearly separate from Rogueport. Maybe that Rogueport is in a country without any governement, thus explaining why the only rich area is only populated by stars and foreign people, why Rogueport completely lacks a police - or even any true laws - and the name of the land in which it is is unknown - Rogueport is a land by itself, although being reducted to a single town, and the mafia and thief gang are fighting to take over the place.
Peach's domain apparently covers Toad Town, the map of M&L3, the map of M&L2, and the map of Paper Mario minus Flower Field and Lavalava Island (and locations in the sky). I wonder what Mushroom City is - it's quite a big place (heck, look down on Rainbow Road in Double Dash, Mushroom Town seems to be as big as, say, New York City or even Tokyo) yet we don't know if Peach actually rules it (I assume she doesn't, and the Chancellor / Minister is the one who makes most choices and rules the entire kingdom - that explains why he takes Peach's place when she's not there, why Peach's domain seems to be so small, and why she takes time for kart racing and other stuff). Although I also assume the city is populated by very diversified people and is very modern, and the only "ancient" part of the kingdom is Peach's domain (which is just a small part of it).
People live out there in the fields instead of the big city for the same reason people still live in villages nowadays even if the capital is a couple kilometers away from it.
Also, I'd say it goes like this:
- Mushroom Kingdom: Is in a state kind of close to current China (although less serious). Very modernized on a side, but the interior of the land is just countryside with poor people. There are multiple ethnies too, but only within Peach's domain. The land has very different climates depending of the location, but overral the place is VERY rugged and populated with monsters, magic isn't rare either.
- Mushroom World (the seven kingdoms in SMB3): As far as we know, these seven lands lack modern technology at all.
- Beanbean Kingdom: Lacks modernisation too. However, the Woohoo Academy studies Blocks and uses very high technology. The land's mainly countryside, but is happens to have a desert and woods too. Monsters are running wild here too.
- Rogueport and other areas: Not in a official country, there's a serious political problem as the "country" needs a ruler. People are VERY poor too. But at least you have the Glitz Pit (it may have been constructed by foreign people too) which is very hi-tech, and Picaly Hills which is the only rich town in the "country", behind mountains.
- DK Island: A tropical island originally inhabited by Kongs, but people (humans ?) tried to modernize it, with success, until the island got a capital: Big Ape City. However, most inhabitants eventually moved to another country for some reason, and now the only civilized people living there are Kongs and Animal Buddies.
- Yoshi Island: A far away place, where only Yoshis live (alongside monsters, not in peace though) joyfully and don't really care about making villages and all.
- Yoster Island & Dino Land: A small island, which is part of a way bigger island. Yoshis and monsters live there, and the fact people go there in vacation means the country interacts with others even though it doesn't seem to have any mayor.
- Diamond City: The only completely modern place we've seen yet. Well, it's probably part of a bigger country, but still, it's smaller than Mushroom City. I assume the mayor is Wario (but then, how come the city isn't ruined... yet ?).
- Delfino Isle: A tropical island which acts more like a giant beach resort than an actual place where to live. Tourism and food seem to be the only things the inhabitants make money out of.
Overral, it looks like only the Mushroom Kingdom and nearby countries are really poor. Even DK Island was richer at a time, while Yoshis seem to be too carefree to care about such things and Delfino Isle isn't exactly a nice place anyway (awful laws which apparently are "if someone is suspected to be a criminal, then he is. Why not ?").
Other locations are in the sky or even in space, so I'm done theorizing now.
I'd say, the Mushroom Kingdom is poor but it's not poor enough for people to suffer. But a part of the kingdom is very modernized - heck, a futuristic city appears in Super Mario Soccer, and it's said to be in the Mushroom Kingdom ; I assume it's a insanely modern part of Mushroom City.
The kingdom's main industry is obviously agriculture, but that may only be within Peach's domain. Outside of it, you have hyper modern and even futuristic places, like if it was a completely different place.
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Post by cheat-master30 on May 10, 2011 19:31:41 GMT -5
But what of Luigi's Mansion? Weird question, but the ghosts from the game seem to have come from areas with fairly modern technology and a not too middle ages style culture. I know many are probably parodies of real world figures, but they did exist in the Mushroom World somehow, so by implication their cultures must have too. Heck, the Wario Land areas need mentioning, since towns and cities do exist in them, with modern technology. Wario Land 2 had a fairly up to date big city with office buildings, apartments, sports and a factory nearby, while Wario Land 4 has Crescent Moon Village and Hotel Horror, which while probably having about 50s era technology, still have electricity and lighting, and must have been in use by the kingdom's 20th century equivalent period. www.mariowiki.com/images/e/e0/WL2_S_4-0.PNGwww.mariowiki.com/images/7/79/HotelHorror.PNGThe factories too. That Curious Factory looks fairly modern, as does the Toxic Landfill (cars and TVs can be found in it), as does Pinball Zone (dating to about the 60s or 70s). Arabian Night implies old, middle east style areas must have had civilisations at some distant time. As mentioned before, Mario Party has some modern looking areas, as do the sports games. Toad's Factory is basically brand new. This isn't old: www.mariowiki.com/images/d/db/Moonviewhighway.pngThis may be a New York parody, but nothing other than 'world' implies real life location: www.mariowiki.com/images/c/c6/Nheights.jpgWhat about this? www.mariowiki.com/images/f/f9/FSday.JPGMay be from a book, may not. Where does Shroom City take place (from Mario Party Advance)? Wet Dry World definitely has a middle east style desert town in the background, that could be from any era: www.mariowiki.com/images/e/e7/Wet-Dry_World_64.pngHeck, possibly nigh Biblical type times. Twilight City too, which is another major city which is found in the Mario vs Donkey Kong series: www.mariowiki.com/images/b/b2/TwinlightCitylevel.jpgThat implies the world/Mushroom Kingdom/surrounding areas aren't quite mostly poor or rural. |
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Post by Sarisa on May 11, 2011 0:34:56 GMT -5
I just replayed Paper Mario 2. The Mushroom Kingdom is referenced multiple times, and it's clearly separate from Rogueport. Maybe that Rogueport is in a country without any governement, thus explaining why the only rich area is only populated by stars and foreign people, why Rogueport completely lacks a police - or even any true laws - and the name of the land in which it is is unknown - Rogueport is a land by itself, although being reducted to a single town, and the mafia and thief gang are fighting to take over the place. This makes sense. Oddly enough, some basic modern technology can flourish in this environment; the cheapest cell phone packages in Africa are in Mogadishu, Somalia. This is pretty much what I've been saying for a while, so no argument here - except that for living out in the village to be a viable option, you need advanced telecommunications for telecommuting or some sort of advanced farming technology, neither of which we see any evidence for within the MK outside racing games and their motorized vehicles. Thank you! I agree completely with this. Pretty much by default, as there wasn't anything more advanced than a go-kart in the Mushroomsphere until when, MK64? That gives me an idea. Considering that the non-Beanish version of most of the monsters running around in the Beanbean Kingdom are intelligent, civilized beings, are they monsters - or bandits preying on the Mario Bros. for their wallets instead of their meat? The Glitz Pit is very high in the sky, and inaccessible unless you're well connected or can reach it naturally; it's a perfectly safe investment unless Grubba goes out of his way to offend someone who can reach it. I can't explain Poshley Heights (the English name) so easily, but again, the mountains probably keep it safe. Jungles are not good for human health - although I have no idea who built Big Ape City and why. Kremlings? It's unsupported, but just this side of possible, that Dinosaur Land is a protectorate of the MK. That is, the MK handles interaction with the outside world and leaves the natives to govern themselves. Diamond City is also notable for having most of the world's known human population. That in itself is a major difference. There are places like that IRL. Now, I have no idea how Isle Delfino supports itself when the Mushroomsphere is so poor. I'd guess the sheer population of the Mushroom Kingdom, Rogueportistan, and Diamond City is enough to keep it in business. To bring the fourth wall into things, the core Mario platformers and RPGs, what we rely on for our image of "Mario," are the low-tech-MK games. The high-tech side only comes out in the other spinoffs, the Wario series (which left the MK long long ago), and DK spinoffs. Edit: Bowser's magitek, even as early as SMB3, was advanced. Tanks and an airforce seriously outclassed (and continue to outclass) anything Peach has. Throw in the clown car, razor gears, super-powering platforms, and dark matter factories, and Bowser has a significant tech lead on the whole Mushroomsphere save Woohoo University. Alas, Bowser putting his technology to good (or even profitable) use is about as likely as Wario taking a vow of poverty. Edit 2: We've shed some light on the Mushroomsphere's level of economic and technological development, but we haven't gotten anywhere with the age of the Mushroom Kingdom. What do you mean by "age" anyhow, EpicGyllynn? |
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Post by Koopalmier on May 12, 2011 6:14:39 GMT -5
Peach's domain is stuck in the 19th century, nearby areas look like they are in the 21th century, Mushroom City is a gigantic city and there's a 24th century city somewhere. Knowing how old is the Mushroom Kingdom is next to impossible.
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Post by EpicGyllynn on May 16, 2011 0:48:30 GMT -5
Agreed Koopalmier, determining the age of the Mushroom Kingdom is nearly impossible due to the sheer number of factors involved. However, since we are on the topic
of nations in Mushroom Earth, I figured that I'd chime in:
-Mushroom Kingdom: Despite the primary populace being Toads, the Royal Family consist if Humans; The Kingdom is divided into several regions, each with their own leaders(ala Governers) who rule over the local leaders of Cities, Towns and Villages across the nation. I don't think the average citizen would be classified as, say, a peasant, but their income probably doesn't exceed that of a lower-middle class American.
-BeanBean Kingdom: Similar to the Mushroom Kingdom, although substantially smaller(based on what we've seen), ruled by Beanish, and with a constantly fluctuating economy.
-Isle Delfino & Surrounding Islands: Populated mostly by the Pianta, it has a Hotel-Casino, Marketplace, Amusement Park, etc., and appears to make most of it's income off of tourist.
Continued in Part Two...
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Post by EpicGyllynn on May 16, 2011 20:42:31 GMT -5
Part 2...
-Rougeport & Surrounding Areas: Doesn't appear to have any real form of government, and is filled with poverty and crime to the extreme (albeit w/ a few exceptions)!
-Sarasaland: Yet another nation similar to the Mushroom Kingdom, albeit populated mainly by... Jumping Asian Ghost? Lol, seriously though, who lives here?
-Dinosaur Islands/Land: An Island Chain populated by, you guessed it, Dinosaurs! The only known sentient species here being the Yoshi, who inhabit Yoster Island, and the Boos, who live in randomly placed "Ghost House." As far as we know, Dinosaur Land doesn't belong to any one nation.
Well, I think I covered everything... Sorry for being off-topic; Also, I think it's safe to assume the Mushroom Kingdom is close to, if not exceeding 1,000 years in age. Don't know about the others though.
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Post by Sarisa on May 16, 2011 21:35:22 GMT -5
I think the real problem is that there's not much of a necessary connection between the age of a polity (what you're asking) and its state of development (what we've been providing). Some examples:
USA - Highly advanced, 235 years (Declaration of Independence)
Canada - Just as highly advanced, 144 years (British North America Acts)
Japan - More or less as advanced, 59 years? (Treaty of San Francisco) 143 years? (Meiji Restoration) 2671 years? (traditional)
UK - More or less as advanced, 323 years? (Glorious Revolution) 945 years? (Battle of Hastings)
Ethiopia - Very backward, 2100 years?
Yemen - Almost as backward, 21 years? 3200 years?
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Post by Koopalmier on May 17, 2011 4:29:05 GMT -5
How did the debate become this, then ?
*looks at the top of the thread*
um, forget that. Sorry. And, uh, don't look over there, please.
So... It's impossible to know how old the kingdom is. There are a few shrines, but these are at insanely high heights and thus the low number of shrines may just be because the ancient people wasn't exactly happy about climbing cold mountains at the edge of the sky just to build a shrine only monks would pray to. As for the kingdom itself, while Peach's domain is quite primitive, the "outside" part (Mushroom City) is really rich, and if the futuristic city in Mario Strikers Charged (or was that Super Mario Strikers ?) is part of Mushroom City, then the kingdom's at least two centuries older than any real-world location.
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