The Mushroom Army

[Sarisa]

Dec 11, 2010 4:17:15 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

Mario and Luigi aren't really the millitary. Just two heroes.

So, if Mario and Luigi aren't the entirety of the Mushroom Kingdom military, where is this mysterious outfit?

We see some guards in Paper Mario, rendered ineffectual by a surprise assault from below (to be fair, so was Mario). Fice T. was too cowardly to make an effectual guard, but in a more rational world it would make sense to leave some lousy guards around the capital and put the good soldiers on the frontiers. (Not in the MK, with Bowser's history of directly targeting Toad Town.)

The Toad Brigade mentioned a promotion to Royal Guards, so they presumably make up part of the Mushroom Army.

Who else could be in the army, and if they're as ineffectual as they have been since SMB, how was the Mushroom Kingdom established?

<wild speculation>

Maybe it wasn't - established by Toads, that is. Maybe humans (from Earth?) overran the areas inhabited by Toads and established rule by a small human nobility over Toad commoners, and the human population of the Mushroomsphere has dwindled to a few isolated members since. Which is why Princess Peach relies on Toads for all functions of government, and why the superheroes Mario and Luigi are the only effective military units she has. Once the humans are all gone, Bowser's heir will be able to take over the Mushroom Kingdom at any time.

</wild speculation>

[Koopalmier]

According to many official bios, Toads are exremely strong (maybe as much as Mario and Luigi) but are scared of pretty much everything. Maybe that they were more courageous centuries ago, but the people's way of acting changed over the time, and now Toads are still the kingdom's army but they aren't courageous enough to do anything. And Peach didn't think of making a better army because Mario and Luigi are there anyway.

That "wild speculation" is so good it could be true.

[ddshoeshowz]

That's a really interesting idea, actually. Where was it said that they were super strong?

[Le Mario Bro]

*is playing SMB2*

I'm sorry, what was that?

[PDoogan]

It was in the backstory of PM2 as well. One of the four heroes was a strong toad. Also, Prince Mush was the champion of the Glitz Pit.

[Koopalmier]

Dec 17, 2010 8:00:23 GMT -5 ddshoeshowz said:

That's a really interesting idea, actually. Where was it said that they were super strong?

Mario Superstar Baseball. SMB2 and SSBM strongly hint it too.

[yellowyoshi]

I have a theory on the Toad army problem,

It could be that only a few select Toads have learned to utilize their strength, sort of like learning how use your left hand when your right handed.

[Sarisa]

So it came from SMB2, but it's become established that Toads (or at least Toad heroes) are very strong?

The real problem with using Toads as soldiers in a "modern" military isn't their strength, it's their morale. It doesn't matter how strong the soldier is if the soldier runs away when confronted with the assembled Koopa Troop, or a 35-foot-tall dragon-turtle, or some mechanical horror.

<wild speculation>

Now I'm wondering if Toads would be more effective in small squads like the Toad Brigade than in armies. Toads, like humans, can overcome cowardice for the sake of good friends, so a small squad of very close friends would be the least likely to flee (short of something like the Sacred Band of Thebes, which isn't happening in a Mario title). Toads might also make very good bullies; numbers could make a group of Toads brave enough to attack when two groups half the size would both run away. Could a history of Toad mobs be behind Kammy Koopa's claim of bad treatment of Koopas, more than institutional discrimination?

(I'm not trying to make all my wild speculations consistent.)

</wild speculation>

[Koopalmier]

Maybe that Kammy was referring to how the Mushroom Kingdom didn't want the Koopa Tribe to be part of their population (considering they wanted to invade it, and used violence to do so).

The two Toads in NSMBW were courageous and strong enough to rivalize with the Mario Brothers. The Mario Brothers can defeat an entire army. So two Toads could defeat an entire army, as long as they aren't cowards.

[Sarisa]

The exclusion argument would work, except for the PM series. Maybe I'm wrong, but Koopa Village and Petalburg look like they've been established for a while, and Rogueport is mixed. The Koopa Troop may well have been denied permission to settle at some point, quite possibly before SMB. And it's true that the highest-ranking Koopa we see in the MK outside Koopa towns is the Toad Town postmaster. But in the modern RPG series Koopas live in the MK and haven't caused alarm for at least a generation (Kylie).

So, individual Toads are capable fighters (and at a rate more or less equal to other species), but something breaks down when they fight in groups or a merely above-average Toad is attacked.

<wild speculation>

Were the evolutionary ancestors of the Mushroomfolk prey animals? It would fit with Toads' excitable temperament and tendency to panic. Koopas developed harder shells instead, so they could remain laid-back and not get eaten.

</wild speculation>

[Koopalmier]

I'm not talking about the whole Koopa species, but the Koopa Troop in particular.
Actually they did settle down in the kingdom since Super Mario RPG, so it's most likely Kammy is just referring to the events of Super Mario Bros.

[Sarisa]

Come to think of it, when did Bowser move to the Mushroom Kingdom? He says he's a resident in M&L3 (although Bowser believes a lot of things that most disagree with), was quite obviously not a resident during and before SMW, and throwing out SMRPG (due to its dubious canonicity and problematic geography) I can't think of a game that shows his main castle as in the Mushroom Kingdom. M&L1 has his castle in a rocky area, but there are lots of rocky areas in the world and the Mushroom Kingdom has land borders (for example, with the Beanbean Kingdom).

I agree that his title isn't territorial but tribal - he's King of the Koopas because he rules the Koopa Troop, wherever the Koopa Troop might be this month.

From the Japanese Wikipedia:
"In Bowser and the Koopa Troop's debut work, Super Mario Brothers, instad of using the current name 'Koopa Troop' (Kuppa-gundan, literally 'Bowser Corps'), the explanation was that they were the people of the Koopa Kingdom, a nation and regime existing separately from the Mushroom Kingdom, but at present, by Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, they had been transformed into one faction within the Mushroom Kingdom, which Bowser's claim 'I am also a citizen of the Mushroom Kingdom' supports." (My translation.)

[Vent]

Still, the exact definition of the term "Mushroom Kingdom" seems to fluctuation. Some games use it to refer to the area surrounding Peach's Castle, while others use it to refer to the entire world.

I'd just say Bowser is leader of the Koopa Troop and king of the Koopa Kingdom (aka Dark Land) and leave it at that.

[Sarisa]

Thinking a bit more, the Koopa Troop being a faction within the Mushroom Kingdom says more about the ineffectualness of the Mushroom Army than any number of invasions. It's one thing to be stuck with an unfriendly neighbor, but according to the new canon the Mushroom Kingdom is home to a warlord in a permanent state of rebellion who makes frequent attacks on the capital. If people died in the fighting instead of recovering a few minutes later, the situation would be a little like Sri Lanka's civil war.

A related question - if the Koopa Troop living in the Mushroom Kingdom isn't a retcon but a genuine change over the course of the series, were they given permission to settle in a land-for-peace deal that failed because of Bowser's crush on Peach and hatred of Mario (note that he hasn't conquered any land on Mushroom Earth lately, so in that respect it worked), or did they simply find a thinly populated area and settle there, with Princess Peach deciding that it wasn't worthwhile to expel the squatters?

<wild speculation>

Something else to keep Toadsworth up at night - did Bowser lead all the Koopas out of Dark Land, or are there some left behind to become another invasion wave after population pressure builds up in the infertile underground? The idea of the Koopa Troop as a tribe of refugees from an overpopulated Dark Land looking for a new home is too attractive to leave unwritten.

</wild speculation>

[Vent]

Um....I still think when they say "Bowser is a resident of the Mushroom Kingdom" they mean he just resides in Mario's world. I've seen more examples of him ruling another landmass than not, so why are you fixated on the idea of him being a rebel force in the actual Mushroom Kingdom?

[Koopalmier]

Dec 19, 2010 2:34:53 GMT -5 Vent said:

Still, the exact definition of the term "Mushroom Kingdom" seems to fluctuation. Some games use it to refer to the area surrounding Peach's Castle, while others use it to refer to the entire world.

I'd just say Bowser is leader of the Koopa Troop and king of the Koopa Kingdom (aka Dark Land) and leave it at that.

In SMRPG, the area around Peach's castle is just called "Mushroom Castle" and the whole map is (part of) the Mushroom Kingdom (except for Nimbus Land, which is its own kingdom, and Yoster Island too). That may or may not include Bowser's Castle - on a side it's apparently right next to Mario's house in this game, but there's another area that isn't part of the kingdom yet is still on the map.

A related question - if the Koopa Troop living in the Mushroom Kingdom isn't a retcon but a genuine change over the course of the series, were they given permission to settle in a land-for-peace deal that failed because of Bowser's crush on Peach and hatred of Mario (note that he hasn't conquered any land on Mushroom Earth lately, so in that respect it worked), or did they simply find a thinly populated area and settle there, with Princess Peach deciding that it wasn't worthwhile to expel the squatters?

You're talking about a place where everyone has at least one mental illness, calls the others by their first name even if they are superior, and where the number 1 terrorist participates in sports events. Also, note that since Bowser is part of sports events, he became pretty much a friend of the kingdom who causes troubles once in a while (he's part of a play with Mario in Mario Party 2, is an actor in a movie with Mario in Mario Power Tennis and didn't plan to do bad things at the start of Mario & Luigi 3). I think that the people of the MK, although fearing Bowser, are too nice to banish him from the land, and that's why they let him settle in their country.

Something else to keep Toadsworth up at night - did Bowser lead all the Koopas out of Dark Land, or are there some left behind to become another invasion wave after population pressure builds up in the infertile underground? The idea of the Koopa Troop as a tribe of refugees from an overpopulated Dark Land looking for a new home is too attractive to leave unwritten.

"Dark Land" (which didn't even have a name originally - it was just called Bowser Castle, showing the "unimportantness" of the island) is a very barren area, with lava (boiling water ?) may just be what the Koopa Kingdom was (supposedly, the Koopa tribe moved from the MK after the past events of Partners in Time) before Bowser realized it'd be easier to kidnap Peach if his tribe was living closer to the Mushroom Castle, so they moved back to the Mushroom Kingdom. Maybe that the castle was on Dark Land in SMW2: Yoshi's Island (it even has giant mushrooms) but if that's true then they originally were from Dark Land, moved to the MK, moved to Dark Land again and moved once and for all to the MK... actually that makes sense:
- Bowser's Castle (Dark Land) is destroyed. The Koopa Tribe moves to another place with much more ressources - the Mushroom Kingdom.
- The Koopa Troop's first attack of the MK failed, and the Shroob Invasion happened (or not ; it may not have happened before Mario & Luigi 2's present events). The Koopa Troop escapes to Dark Land because they don't want to be attacked by the Mushroom Kingdom's armies.
- Many years later, the Koopa Troop tries to take over the MK three times but fails. After Super Mario World, Bowser realized kidnapping Peach is easier if he lives near her homeplace, so he decides to settle in the MK.

Although the Koopa Kingdom idea may have been retconned, as it's not mentionned anymore in Super Mario All-Stars Wii.

[Sarisa]

Dec 19, 2010 6:13:43 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

You're talking about a place where everyone has at least one mental illness, calls the others by their first name even if they are superior, and where the number 1 terrorist participates in sports events. Also, note that since Bowser is part of sports events, he became pretty much a friend of the kingdom who causes troubles once in a while (he's part of a play with Mario in Mario Party 2, is an actor in a movie with Mario in Mario Power Tennis and didn't plan to do bad things at the start of Mario & Luigi 3). I think that the people of the MK, although fearing Bowser, are too nice to banish him from the land, and that's why they let him settle in their country.

Since I'm pretty sure the last names were added for North America and mostly used as a means of reconciling name problems, it stands to reason that they're not commonly used. Characters without a long history don't have last names. The usage isn't abnormal to this American's ear; royalty is usually addressed by title plus first name or a special title, and the Mario Bros. are celebrities and very confusing to address by last name.

Seriously, Bowser's been on the sporting circuit since before he moved to the MK (SMK predates Yoshi's Safari). It's a reason I think the sports games are out of continuity.

"Dark Land" (which didn't even have a name originally - it was just called Bowser Castle, showing the "unimportantness" of the island) is a very barren area, with lava (boiling water ?) may just be what the Koopa Kingdom was (supposedly, the Koopa tribe moved from the MK after the past events of Partners in Time) before Bowser realized it'd be easier to kidnap Peach if his tribe was living closer to the Mushroom Castle, so they moved back to the Mushroom Kingdom. Maybe that the castle was on Dark Land in SMW2: Yoshi's Island (it even has giant mushrooms) but if that's true then they originally were from Dark Land, moved to the MK, moved to Dark Land again and moved once and for all to the MK... actually that makes sense:
- Bowser's Castle (Dark Land) is destroyed. The Koopa Tribe moves to another place with much more ressources - the Mushroom Kingdom.
- The Koopa Troop's first attack of the MK failed, and the Shroob Invasion happened (or not ; it may not have happened before Mario & Luigi 2's present events). The Koopa Troop escapes to Dark Land because they don't want to be attacked by the Mushroom Kingdom's armies.
- Many years later, the Koopa Troop tries to take over the MK three times but fails. After Super Mario World, Bowser realized kidnapping Peach is easier if he lives near her homeplace, so he decides to settle in the MK.

Although the Koopa Kingdom idea may have been retconned, as it's not mentioned anymore in Super Mario All-Stars Wii.

That makes a lot of sense and even includes PiT, which I didn't know how to fit in. (Maybe the MK's then-not-entirely-useless army was destroyed by the Shroobs?)

What does SMASWii say about the origins of the Koopa Troop?

<wild speculation>

So, the present MK, after all this discussion, still doesn't appear to have an army more effective than a few spear-wielding and unarmed guards. Sooner or later the Mario Bros. are going to pass away and leave the kingdom defenseless. Maybe Peach has prepared for this eventuality by bringing in the Koopa Troop as the core of the future MK military; they're not going to be confused with the Mongol hordes but as Mushroomsphere militaries go they are, or were, top-notch. The danger is that if the Mario Bros. predecease her or Bowser, she's defenseless against her own army. But if her kingdom is doomed without a new army, why not roll the dice?

</wild speculation>

[Koopalmier]

SMASWii just says that, one day, the Koopa tribe attacked and transformed the kingdom's inhabitants into bricks. Nothing proves the Koopa tribe didn't live in the MK before the attack, and there's no mention of a Koopa Kingdom.

I see the sports games as being in-continuity because they were mentionned in Paper Mario 1 and 2, and are a major part of the Mario series too. Except for these RPG sports games which have little to nothing to do with Mario and where the MK is in the sky.
And, I forgot about how SMK came out before YS, sorry. Doesn't change the idea that the Koopa troop became much more friendly with the Mushroom Kingdom since then.

[Sarisa]

Dec 19, 2010 11:57:53 GMT -5 Koopalmier said:

SMASWii just says that, one day, the Koopa tribe attacked and transformed the kingdom's inhabitants into bricks. Nothing proves the Koopa tribe didn't live in the MK before the attack, and there's no mention of a Koopa Kingdom.

Thanks. I don't own a Wii, so I'm behind on my game plots. Does the Japanese say カメ一族 or カメ王国?

I see the sports games as being in-continuity because they were mentionned in Paper Mario 1 and 2, and are a major part of the Mario series too. Except for these RPG sports games which have little to nothing to do with Mario and where the MK is in the sky.
And, I forgot about how SMK came out before YS, sorry. Doesn't change the idea that the Koopa troop became much more friendly with the Mushroom Kingdom since then.

Looking at the plots, I'd date the change from "Koopa Kingdom" to the Koopa Troop as an MK-based force to no earlier than 1996, with SMRPG and SM64. But I don't think it was made explicit before BIS.
I'll have to ponder the continuity of the sports games further.

[Koopalmier]

Thanks. I don't own a Wii, so I'm behind on my game plots. Does the Japanese say ƒJƒˆê‘° or ƒJƒ‰¤‘?

... What are you talking about, exactly ? About the Japanese name of the Koopa tribe / troop ? I don't know, I own the French version (duh).

I'll have to ponder the continuity of the sports games further.

There should be a topic about that. But I'm too lazy to make one.