|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 10, 2005 15:45:56 GMT -5
Another huuuge inconsistency in the Mario series. Throughout the first three games the Koopa Troopas were quadrapedal and retreated to within their shells when attacked. However, when SMW rolled around, the Koopa Troopas were bipedal and were able to be ejected from their shells upon impact, seemingly without any injury whatsoever. And so, I've developed two theories on this occurence. Theory numero uno: the original quadraped koopas were so ineffective that Bowser had their physical structure altered through magic, such as to be more effective in combat (like the original Hammer Brothers were). And theory number two: the koopas shown from SMW and forward through out the series are in fact not the same species as the original "shell creeper" type koopas. It's obvious that shells are not a normal part of these koopas genetic make-up, and they don't need them to survive. Perhaps they wear the shells for cultural, maybe even religious, purposes or simply just for defense. An original Koopa Troopa: gallery.gamehiker.com/albums/mario/smb3/tanookikoopa.jpgThe new, modern Koopa Troopa: pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/svg/KOOPA.png |
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 10, 2005 18:29:59 GMT -5
Theory numero uno: the original quadraped koopas were so ineffective that Bowser had their physical structure altered through magic, such as to be more effective in combat (like the original Hammer Brothers were). We've seen from the Mario RPGs, though, that Hammer Brothers and Boomerang Brothers are actually just Koopa Troopas with armor and weapons. So here's my theory: In the original trilogy, Bowser ordered the unarmed Koopa Troopas to travel on all fours and charge at their enemies. He reasoned that this stance would protect them from air attacks and make their attacks more powerful. Meanwhile, he ordered the specialists, the Koopas that used weapons, to stand upright and wield their weapons (since it's kind of hard to wield a weapon on all fours). This strategy was completely effective in taking over the countryside, but only partly when the Mario brothers were thrown in the mix. Although Mario did have trouble defeating the upright, boomerang- and hammer-using Koopas, he took out the quadruped troops with relative ease. After bouncing on the backs of these troops (and subsequently scaring them into their shells), he was also able to use the shells as weapons. Finally, Bowser caught on and ordered the unarmed troops to begin conducting themselves like those that used arms. He also told them to make an effort to bail out of their shells and attempt to stop Mario from using the shell as a weapon. |
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 10, 2005 22:03:21 GMT -5
Interesting, so you believe that Koopa Troopas are both quadrapedal as well as bipedal? But if you look at the two images of the original Koopa Troopas versus the new Koopa Troopas, you'll see that the original Koopa Troopas did not have the fully developed hands that the newer Troopas have. Also, if they were the same then wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the quadrapedal Troopas would be wearing boots on all four feet, much like the bipeds are wearing them?
And in regards to the Koopa Troopas and the Hammer Brothers, I've always viewed the Hammer Bros as a magical modification of the troopas because: A) Once again, the whole walking erect thing, B) If you look at the physical traits of a Koopa Troopa compared to a Hammer Brother, you can see many subtle differences (which I will point out when I post a pic), C) The ability to jump without needing to use wings like the Koopa Troopas do.
And once again, the theory on the shells seems a little bit illogical. How would abandoning their shells prevent Mario from using them as weapons? If anything, it seems like staying inside the shell would greatly decrease the chances of Mario using it to his advantage. In fact, it would probably provide a good opportunity for a sneak attack.
I have a huge theory concerning the topic that spans into Bowser's past, the absence of many humans in the Mushroom Kingdom, as well as why neither the Mushroom Kingdom nor the Koopa Klan seemed to have forms of a military in the first game. Anyway, here goes:
I believe that before the Mario Bros. games (even before Yoshi's Island), there was a war between the Mushroom Kingdom and the Koopa Klan (which then consisted of more of Bowser's species and the Magikoopa guild). During this war, most of the humans (which were allied with the Mushroom Kingdom) and the majority of Bowser's race were wiped out by each other, leaving the Mushroom Kingdom practically defensless and the Koopa Klan as nothing more than a broken empire with a sole infant heir (Bowser). Because of the fact that most of the original Koopa Klan was destroyed, Kamek (who was left to raise Bowser until his ascention to the thrown) began to enslave and magically brainwash the native inhabitants of the current lands, in order to have some form of defense should the Mushroom Kingdom attempt to completely destroy the Koopa Klan while they were weak. This began with the Shyguys on Yoshi's Island, but as the Klan began to grow in power they started capturing the "troopas" and enslaving them as well, the Magikoopas forcing the evolution of some of them to make the troopas more like them, and thus creating a bipedal elite guard who could handle tools and weaponry (these were the hammer brothers). However, at the time the majority of them were only semi-intelligent quadrapedal wildlife. This was sufficient, until the Mario Bros showed up and began to easily dispose of these temporary foot soldiers. In response, the Magikoopa guild forced the evolution of the rest of the troopas into their current form.
Oh, and another thing to mention is that in Mario&Luigi: Superstar Saga, there is an enemy called a "Troopea" which is basically a Koopa Troopa that evolved in the Beanbean territory. The thing about Troopeas is that they are still quadrapedal, where as earlier in the game you can plainly see that the Koopa Troopas are bipedal. This signals to me that something definately occured to alter the original Koopa Troopas, otherwise they would still be quadrapedal like the Troopeas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 10, 2005 22:10:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Yoshi Master on Mar 10, 2005 23:36:39 GMT -5
Here's my scoop:
Koopa's could have always been able to stand. Much like monkeys they can use their hands as feet. ( I'm not saying in any way that their related to monkeys ) They wear boots on there feet because those ARE their feet. Running on all fours gives extra speed.
They have shells because their turtles. There's no left or right.
There's many differnt breeds but they can all walk and come out of their shells.
The Hammer Bros. are there own breed of Koopas. I don't like the magically alter idea, cus that would be a global transformation and terribly difficult I would think.
I feel I've left somthing out. Comment?
I like your idea on the war. I'm tying it together with why the Mario's didnt grow up in TMK, the power stars, and several events from Yoshi's Island. ( the game )
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 11, 2005 8:09:59 GMT -5
It wouldn't necessarily be a global transformation, only the forces under the control of the Koopa Klan. My belief is that Koopas were originally just wild animals, much like the Troopeas in M&L, but they were under the mind control of Bowser. This worked out fine because the Mushroom Kingdom didn't have a military anymore and Toad's bodies were so physically weak and brittle that a simple attack from a wild animal such as a Koopa could take one down relatively easily.
|
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 11, 2005 12:03:32 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 11, 2005 12:09:37 GMT -5
About the quadruped to biped issue, I think the Troopea proves that Nintendo does see a difference between the two variations. But I think Nintendo sees it as being two species of Koopa Troopa. So maybe Bowser first decided to use the quadrupedal Koopas and later relied more heavily on the more effective bipeds.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 11, 2005 19:36:01 GMT -5
You're right, my theory is flawed because biped Koopas were used in SMW2. I had completely forgotten.  So I suppose there are two seperate races, then. I'll have to revise my history. |
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 13, 2005 23:35:29 GMT -5
What about the Koopa Troopa in SML that had a bomb for a shell? What was their name, and how do you think they came about?
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 14, 2005 9:38:40 GMT -5
Those were Nokobons. They always struck me as a fusion of a Koopa and a Bob-omb. I don't think they could be cross-breeds because I don't believe Bob-ombs are actually living things, simply automatons. Or rather, since Tatanga seemed to rely on technology as opposed to magic, they might have been cyborgs. Koopas captured and surgically implanted with explosives. gallery.gamehiker.com/displayimage.php?album=56&pos=20 |
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 15, 2005 17:58:32 GMT -5
The cyborg theory sounds good. But I don't agree with your statement about Bob-ombs not being living things. Play Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door (whenever you get the chance) and then tell me what you think.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 15, 2005 21:29:29 GMT -5
I really do need to play it. >_< If it's possible to just tell me flat out what part of the game your referring to, I'm betting that I could understand what you mean. I could always do some research and find out what you're talking about. Just remember to throw a spoiler warning in there.  |
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 15, 2005 22:56:01 GMT -5
Let's just say... Bob-ombs live in towns, and they have feelings. I can't say much else without ruining a fun surprise.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 16, 2005 15:22:42 GMT -5
lol That's ok, I don't like surprises. ^_^
And I'm not saying that Bob-ombs aren't sentient, we learned this from Paper Mario and Super Mario 64. My theory, as crazy as it may sound, is that Bob-ombs and those walking cannon things from SMW2 (I forget what they're called) are actually left over weapons from the first war that wiped out the Koopa Klan and Mushroom Kingdom's militaries. After a while though, the Bob-ombs, that had been created to be intelligent in order to better hunt down targets, eventually realized that they had no purpose as weapons anymore and began to build towns and societies, and began to propogate themselves. How they would build anything, however, is beyond me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 16, 2005 18:21:36 GMT -5
Well, as long as you give them (as robots) the ability to have emotions, I agree with that theory.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yoshi Master on Mar 17, 2005 21:11:50 GMT -5
You should make the title Koopa's and Bob-omb's. Koopa's have two main breeds: green and red shells. We do not have conlusive proof to make Koopa's only bipedal or quadrupedal, or both. Out of simplicity lets say Koopas walk on two feet and can run on all fours. Koopa's walking on all fours was because of limited graphics condtions. I think Mario & Luigi is the first game to have bipedal Koopa's since SMB3. ( I need to play it ) Bob-omb's should be more like the ones in SMS. The screen as a face is brilliant. Lets remember the history of Bob-omb's here. They first appeared in the dream land of Subcon. They are from Subcon! Not Bowser! They are Wart's creation! Ha! inconclusive proof rocks! By some horible acident a portal to Subcon and the Mushroom World was opened, a Bob-omb went through, Bowser saw and/or captured it,and Bowser started making them. If I made Paper Mario a movie it would be kick anus, and that Bob-omb that has a crush on Bombette didn't exist. They could have large AI so that their programmed to perform things under certain events. Like when get hit say " ouch ". But not enough to really feel or love. ( or come together and nuke the planet...  ) Bowser still makes Bob-ombs and other evil devices to this day. |
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 18, 2005 11:11:04 GMT -5
Koopa's have two main breeds: green and red shells. But we can't jut ignore all the other variations that have been shown through out the games. What about the blue and yellow ones from SMW? And what about the purple guys from Paper Mario? Like I said, there's way too many variations to just start ignoring stuff. Which is exactly why I made this thread. So we could hopefully be able to find some kind of proof. The whole subject of graphics limitations is exactly what we're trying to avoid here, along with the subjects artistic differences, and changes in game directors. If we could just chalk everything up to stuff being different because they were drawn that way, then we wouldn't need this board at all. Besides, they certainly didn't have those kinds of limitations by the time SMB3 rolled around, and yet they were still quadrapeds in that one. Do you mean quadrapedal? Because there have certainly been plenty of games in between those two that featured bipedal koopas. I agree, the more mechanical Bob-ombs were very...interesting. Very true, but could those really be classified as contemporary Bob-ombs? The major difference there is that they had arms, a trait that no Bob-omb has ever showed since. That's very true that they first appeared in Subcon, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're from there. After all, the Shyguys first appeared in Subcon as well. However, they went on to be featured in SMW2, which took place before SMB2 and the whole Subcon scenario. A pretty good theory. That might also explain why Bowser's Bob-ombs aren't quite the same as the Subcon ones (i.e. Not having arms). Sounds fine, but we can't just go throwing out information at random. The fact of the matter is that Bob-ombs have very obviously been known to show emotion, so we have to factor that in. Perhaps you're right and it is just incredibly well put together AI, but what if it's something more? |
|
|
|
Post by Claws on Mar 18, 2005 13:24:20 GMT -5
I think the Bob-ombs are too much like an organized society and a unique race to just be weapons made by Bowser. They have wars (SM64, MP), they feel emotion (PM, PM:TTYD), and they operate and live in municipalities (PM:TTYD). I think those that fight for Bowser are just ones he has recruited.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kamikaze Koopa on Mar 18, 2005 15:18:00 GMT -5
I agree. I think that maybe the more mechanical Bob-ombs from Super Mario Sunshine might be Bowser's attempt at making Bob-ombs of his own.
Gee, I wonder where the other ones keep disappearing to? Oh yeah, kaboom!! Lol, sorry I couldn't resist.
Here's a question. Do Bob-ombs actually detonate or do they just send out shockwaves? Because they can obviously still be intact after a blast.
|
|
