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Post by cheat-master30 on Jun 14, 2011 18:25:50 GMT -5
You know, in response to all the geeks online who talk as if it's confirmed that Rosalina is 'God' or some other equivalent in the Mario universe. Indeed, what they have to consider, and what they're missing is as follows:
1. Rosalina was implied to be a normal person prior to her current role. That should automatically preclude an individul from being identified as 'creator' or 'God', because they'd date from long after the universe was created and more importantly, after the people and places they supposedly made. It just makes no sense.
That and well, for obvious reasons, very few religions and cosomological systems ever 'promote' a normal human to main deity.
As for the 'restarting the universe' thing... well, in theory, any villain could probably do it, as could any sufficiently powerful magical being. The Paper Mario games seem to imply the Shadow Queen and Dimentio could probably remake the universe (for the worse), heck, Grodus states that as an ambition:
All of her powers could theoretically be exhibited by one of many other characters, especially villains. Heck, you know the force field that appears when Mario tries to jump on her?
Doesn't Count Bleck do the exact same thing with the power of the Chaos Heart?
The whole thing with the Comet Observatory and stuff isn't special either, Starship Mario uses a similar star powered transport system. Presumably, Peach's Castle and Isle Delfino's Shine Gate have similar systems for other purposes.
Anyone agree?
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Post by EpicGyllynn on Jun 14, 2011 23:35:26 GMT -5
Straight up, Cheat. Also, I don't believe she hit the Reset Button on the Universe so much as time simply reverting back to before the Star Festival. Great points, bro.
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Post by Koopalmier on Jun 15, 2011 6:52:14 GMT -5
I believe the Lumas (who are stars after all) made the Black Hole "overstuffed", making it collapse on its own gravity force and explode, making a new Big Bang, and bringing everything back to how it was (except for light objects in space, which were mixed). We do see a giant Rosalina talk to Mario in a blue vortex with Baby Lumas crying, but Mario wakes up after that so I think it was more of a vision than anything.
Actually, people believe Rosalina is a god just because of this scene, which also makes them think she's the one who reseted the universe. Sigh.
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Post by kingkoopa on Jun 15, 2011 10:18:53 GMT -5
Wasn't that just a vision?
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Post by Koopalmier on Jun 15, 2011 10:30:20 GMT -5
I do think it was just a vision. Mario's still knocked out, and Rosalina's talking to him by a dream. But blame Nintendo for not making it clear.
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Post by kingkoopa on Jun 15, 2011 14:11:03 GMT -5
You can more or less blame Nintendo for half the problems with Nintendo's canon. You blame the other half on DiC, Disney, and Tracey West.
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Post by Vent on Jun 15, 2011 14:32:57 GMT -5
....To bring this back on topic, I dunno why anybody persists on using the "it was just a dream/vision" excuse when this is a fictional world were pretty much anything can happen.
That said, while Rosalina might not be a literal God, she does have a pretty God-like position. If one were to assume the big cosmic explosion at the end of SMG1 was just a time reset, then why did Mario blurt out "Welcome New Galaxy!"?
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Post by EpicGyllynn on Jun 15, 2011 16:40:02 GMT -5
Koop, theory has perfection!
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Post by cheat-master30 on Jun 15, 2011 18:43:41 GMT -5
....To bring this back on topic, I dunno why anybody persists on using the "it was just a dream/vision" excuse when this is a fictional world were pretty much anything can happen. That said, while Rosalina might not be a literal God, she does have a pretty God-like position. If one were to assume the big cosmic explosion at the end of SMG1 was just a time reset, then why did Mario blurt out "Welcome New Galaxy!"? He's crazy? I mean, in a more 'realistic' setting, if you said you experienced the Mario Galaxy ending (and even more so considering the new galaxy has pretty much no differences from the old one), you'd be as insane too. Then again, there's nothing say it wasn't a new universe (new galaxy? That makes no sense, unless somehow the change only edited Bowser's Galaxy Reactor), just that Rosalina wasn't responsible for it. |
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Post by EpicGyllynn on Jun 15, 2011 23:38:56 GMT -5
....To bring this back on topic, I dunno why anybody persists on using the "it was just a dream/vision" excuse when this is a fictional world were pretty much anything can happen. That said, while Rosalina might not be a literal God, she does have a pretty God-like position. If one were to assume the big cosmic explosion at the end of SMG1 was just a time reset, then why did Mario blurt out "Welcome New Galaxy!"? Because only Mario saw it, and everyone in Super Mario Galaxy 2 apparently has no memory of the events of the first game (besides Mario, because he never talks). I'm going to agree with Koopalmiers theory mostly, mine differing only slightly in that everyone remained subconsciously aware of the first game, besides Mario, who actually remembered. |
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Post by Koopalmier on Jun 16, 2011 6:37:11 GMT -5
....To bring this back on topic, I dunno why anybody persists on using the "it was just a dream/vision" excuse when this is a fictional world were pretty much anything can happen. That said, while Rosalina might not be a literal God, she does have a pretty God-like position. If one were to assume the big cosmic explosion at the end of SMG1 was just a time reset, then why did Mario blurt out "Welcome New Galaxy!"? After he says that, the camera drastically zooms out and you see planets from different galaxies, all glued into a single cosmic grape. Just before that, you see a galaxy from the sky. Every galaxy Mario went through merged into a single one due to the Big Bang. You also see characters from different galaxies in the Grand Finale Galaxy level. They probably can travel from the new galaxy to Mario's planet, now. |
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joshi
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Post by joshi on Jul 7, 2011 22:29:28 GMT -5
1. Rosalina was implied to be a normal person prior to her current role. That should automatically preclude an individul from being identified as 'creator' or 'God', because they'd date from long after the universe was created and more importantly, after the people and places they supposedly made. It just makes no sense. Sure it precludes her from being a creator, but why can't she be a god? Not all gods are involved in creation (In fact, very often in mythology the creator gods are considered dead or absent), and mortals rising to divinity is a pretty common theme. You might have a point with "main" deity, but otherwise it happens pretty often 'round about our parts. The ancient Egyptian Pharaoh, Greek hero cults, and some varieties of ancestor worship are a few examples that come to mind immediately. I think it's important to distinguish the difference between metaphorically recreating the world and actually rebooting the universe. Claims that you will "remake the world" might just mean reshaping the political landscape to suit your ideals, rather than actually destroying the planet and recreating it. (It think this is a bit of a moot point though because it seems more like the Lumas did it than Rosalina herself, but it bears mentioning) |
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Post by Koopalmier on Jul 9, 2011 9:33:47 GMT -5
1. Rosalina was implied to be a normal person prior to her current role. That should automatically preclude an individul from being identified as 'creator' or 'God', because they'd date from long after the universe was created and more importantly, after the people and places they supposedly made. It just makes no sense. Sure it precludes her from being a creator, but why can't she be a god? Not all gods are involved in creation (In fact, very often in mythology the creator gods are considered dead or absent), and mortals rising to divinity is a pretty common theme. You might have a point with "main" deity, but otherwise it happens pretty often 'round about our parts. The ancient Egyptian Pharaoh, Greek hero cults, and some varieties of ancestor worship are a few examples that come to mind immediately. I think it's important to distinguish the difference between metaphorically recreating the world and actually rebooting the universe. Claims that you will "remake the world" might just mean reshaping the political landscape to suit your ideals, rather than actually destroying the planet and recreating it. (It think this is a bit of a moot point though because it seems more like the Lumas did it than Rosalina herself, but it bears mentioning)[/quote] But Rosalina lived on Mario's planet before. She didn't appear from nowhere and bring logic to the chaos, or lived in a holy place, she was just a normal kid who ended up in space. It's not her who rebooted the universe either. It's the Lumas. She didn't do a single thing in that, although she did tell Mario what happened and what the world is now. Rosalina has shown no signs of being a divinity. Well, you COULD consider her as a minor divinity as she gave hemself a major role in the universe, but saying she's the god of the Marioverse is... farfetched. |
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joshi
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Post by joshi on Jul 9, 2011 23:50:53 GMT -5
Well, yes, she is/was mortal. But then again, so were a lot of kami and most of the Greek hero-gods. Which I already addressed. So I'm not sure what your point is there. I also addressed the fact that it was actually the Lumas who did it, so I'm not sure what your point is there, either. Rosalina very clearly displays the traits of a Mother Goddess, even going so far as to be a literal maternal figure to a species that would, in other fictions, be considered divine or the agents thereof. There's also some elements of dawn goddesses, including figures such as Ēostre, who you might recognise as the namesake for the Christian holiday of Easter. As you might be able to guess, she's also a goddess of fertility and rebirth, which, of course, fit right in with Rosalina and her Lumas. Additionally, the fact that she rides around in a spaceship powered by what appears to be a small sun ties to her to sun gods in general (even if the spaceship is identified as a comet on Mushroom World, we, from our vantage point, can clearly see a sun at its heart), which classically pull the sun across the sky as a chariot. This symbolism, I think, as well as the rumour that she was intended to be distantly related to Peach, ties her in with Amatertsu (Who is, if I'm not mistaken, said to be an ancestor of the Japanese imperial family) Finally, of course, and most tenuously, her association with space evokes the Sky Father figures common to many, many mythologies and religions, including the Abrahamic ones. As I assume most of us were born and raised in Western society, we've been subtly trained to view things through the lens of a Judeo-Christian interpretation, or more loosely a Greco-Roman one, where the ruler of the sky is the ruler of the universe. Since, near as can be told, Rosalina has no serious opposition to a potential rule of the stars, she by default assumes that role in the minds of many fans. I say all this not to claim that Rosalina IS God, or even a god, but merely to point out that she does have divine traits, and was probably designed to consciously evoke them. It should not be surprising that people have seen and responded to them. Edit: It might also be worth noting that, as in real life, many people might feel a need to assign order to the game's world. Especially those who believe in a god for their world, they may mentally balk at the idea of Mario not having a god that can be addressed and spoken to. Even those without such a need see the Mario universe as a fantasy one, even including confirmed afterlives, and as most fantasy series have gods of some variety, Mario should, too. Even were Rosalina not to display divine traits, many people would still reach the conclusions they have. |
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Post by cheat-master30 on Jul 10, 2011 6:55:25 GMT -5
Except it's perfectly plausible for the Mario series to have God(s) and Rosalina not being said God(ess).
Unlike some people, I can accept the difference between fantasy and reality, whether the real world has a God or not should have no effect on the Mario series world.
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joshi
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Post by joshi on Jul 13, 2011 9:17:55 GMT -5
Okay.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but okay. That doesn't really change the fact that others do, nor any of the other point that Rosalina very clearly displays divine traits, thus pretty explicitly making her a "god like figure".
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Post by cheat-master30 on Jul 13, 2011 16:41:00 GMT -5
What I'm saying is simple... if you believe in God, it's perfectly plausible to also think any fictional series has one, but it could easily not be Rosalina. Then again, if you believe in God... why not assume the one you belive in is the Mario verse God? Lot simpler.
And 'divine' traits... could you define those? For all we know, Rosalina's traits could be sufficiently advanced technology or something normal in the Mario universe. Besides, for some definition of such... most powerful characters in the series have 'divine' traits.
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joshi
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Post by joshi on Jul 18, 2011 10:43:30 GMT -5
Well I know both of those are plausible, as well as simply assuming there is no god. But what I said is also plausible, which is rather my point. That part wasn't so much "EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES X WILL CONCLUDE Y," but rather a potential reason why some people might consider her to be the/a god. Not the One True Reason, not the definite reason that a given population of fans will choose, just.. one possible one. Forgive me if I was unclear on any of the mythology stuff. I mostly talk about this with people who have same vocabulary as me, use the same terms I do; I sometimes forget that not everyone has that kind of background. Okay, how to put this... uh, you probably know a few mythological roles, even if you don't actually realise they're a thing. I'm sure you're aware of things like thunder gods (Thor, Zeus), or god of the underworld (Hades, Osiris). These are just two largely recurring themes in mythology, with the fertility goddess, sky father, and dawn goddess I mentioned above being other examples. All of these are themes that crop up time and again in mythology, time and again, although never in the same way. A lot of these are because the mythologies spring from a common source, an earlier, shared culture. But I digress. These features are so common throughout mythology that they're used, quite often, in modern fiction. Take, for example, Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobots. He dies. A lot. Oftentimes as a sacrifice for others. And then he comes back. Obviously, most of Western society can identify that as paralleling Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection. This lends Optimus an air of the divine (at least post-death and revival) and gives him the feel of being an even greater hero: Not even death can stop him from protecting the freedom of all sentient beings. With that said, I think my second post covers what I consider Rosalina's divine traits to be. Do these things necessarily make her an actual god? Nahhh, especially when most of it is the Lumas' doing, not her own. But are they a reason for her to be considered a "god like figure"? Totes! |
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Post by cheat-master30 on Jul 18, 2011 19:43:07 GMT -5
The first role mentioned doesn't appear in the Mario series at all, although Jadis in Paper Mario could count as a goddess of the underworld (or Underwhere). There's also no god roles to go with fertility, a sky father, or a dawn goddess in the series.
On that note, in case I forgot to mention, Grodus wasn't being metaphorical. Nor was the Shadow Queen, Count Bleck or Dimentio, or possibly the Dark Star. They really do have the ability to reboot existance in their favour.
I see no divine abilities to ascribe to Rosalina.
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