Something that annoys me in the Mario series

[cheat-master30]

Yes, it's one of my blog posts, but still:

dsultimate.net/Board/upload/blog/1/entry-1353-mario-two-different-duelling-canons/

Does anyone agree with this analysis? Is anyone else annoyed at how the spinoffs seem to only care about the Mario series up to the point of Super Mario Sunshine?

[SMBBQ]

Well, I actually liked SMS, but I agree, Nintendo needs to move on. As for DK, hopefully Donkey Kong Country Returns will change all the Arcade DK references.

[shadowgoomba]

PM2 Mario is quite possibly the strongest incarnation of Mario the series has seen.
Also MKWii uses Rosalina and Rainbow Road has heavy influences from Super Mario Galaxy. I'm sure they'll be milking it for all it's worth, I'm not concerned about that.

[Artemendo]

Aug 13, 2010 22:39:04 GMT -5 SMBBQ said:

Well, I actually liked SMS, but I agree, Nintendo needs to move on. As for DK, hopefully Donkey Kong Country Returns will change all the Arcade DK references.

I doubt that. It's not developed by Nintendo itself, and they only like referencing their own games. Also... I am still mad at them for not including Kremlings. Why not?! Nintendo owns all the rights to them! The new villains in Jungle Beat and Returns all look uninspired.

[kingkoopa]

Yeah I really would like the Kremlings to return, but think about it, people thought Metroid Prime was going to be a failiure because they changed too many things about it, so far we only know of a few things that they changed from the DK Country Games. Remember that K. Rool isn't what makes the games DK Country games. Heck I don't think there is a character that makes them DK Country games. But you have to remember that the Retro gus are hardcore DK Country players

[Artemendo]

I think what makes the games DK Country games is the amazing graphics and music, more than anything else. Miyamoto said they aren't that spectacular gameplay-wise, and he's not wrong... they are very fun, but a lot of that fun comes from the very immersive atmosphere, not from the gameplay.

[cheat-master30]

It's near enough be proven Animal Buddies and Kong characters will return in Donkey Kong Country Returns thanks to various articles, so it's not like they're ditching everything. But why lose the Kremlings and K Rool? They're just as big parts of the game as what's been included, and if they're jokingly willing to give Enguarde wings to get around the lack of water levels, would it be too hard to add in the Koopalings?

I mean, it seems weird. They bring back all the gameplay elements (barrel cannons, bananas, bonus rooms, immersive environments, KONG letters), all the friendly characters (presumably Kongs and Animal Buddies), and even the entire music tracklist (most music is remixes of that from the series)... and no Kremlings. Huh? Even Diddy's Jetpack and Pop guns got in before the Kremlings, and that's from Donkey Kong 64!

Well, I personally at least hope some non Kremling mooks will return. Unlikely, but hey, wouldn't Zingers be a decent enemy compromise?

[SMBBQ]

Aug 14, 2010 17:29:20 GMT -5 cheat-master30 said:

Kemlings

Fix'd.

Anyway, I don't think no Kremlings will be too bad. After all, they've kinda fallen from their former glory. Most of them probably wouldn't be following orders from K.Rool anymore anyway. I think its okay for them to sit this game out. After all, shouldn't DK have more than one main villain?

[Artemendo]

They also sat out the last game and that wasn't too amazing either. I'm not saying having Kremlings makes it a good game, DK: King of Swing had Kremlings and it's middlin'. But I am saying DKC2, DKC3 and DK64 had Kremlings and were totally awesome.

[cheat-master30]

I think the issue with the non Kremling enemies looking uninspired is because of one key difference... the Kremlings and other species had a sort of personality to them other than being designed for gameplay purposes, and they weren't just the stereotypical cartoon animal enemies found in so many other platformers. But those in Jungle Beat and Returns lack that... personality completely. They seem to be designed for gameplay first, design second, which makes them look very samey and like many other enemies in other games on the market. And they're way too much like the style of Wario World.

As for Sunshine, I don't hate it. But really, it's not particularly fair that Galaxy as a series maybe gets two references in spinoffs and Sunshine gets referenced in nearly every spinoff known to man. At least Luigi's Mansion kinda makes up for it.

[Artemendo]

YES! Exactly! When I think about Kremlings, I think of their funny, clumsy personalities, like Kutlass in DKC2 or the Blast-O-Matic operators and boxing referees in DK64. King K. Rool is funny, too. Those Jungle Beat ones? They look like someone hated their job.

[cheat-master30]

They're also a good example of the developers being arrogant. Not fresh enough? Look at their popularity, the old enemies and characters were plenty fresh enough, it's just Nintendo developer arrogance.

I'm personally wondering if a lack of consistency in the enemies and characters hurt the chances of Wario's platforming series. Maybe the fact there was never a regular cast, as much as I hate the idea caused WarioWare to probably sell more due it having one.

[Artemendo]

Yes, and what's interesting is how the "cast" in Wario Ware has absolutely no bearing on the gameplay, only on the plot. Which can all be clicked away if you're impatient. The only character that appears in the minigames themselves is Wario.

[cheat-master30]

Which leads me to think character is right after gameplay for deciding the success of a game. Too little character and 'universe' and you get Jungle Beat, Wario World, etc. Are they good games? Doubtable. But they failed the fans massively.

You can't just remove everything from the series universe when doing a sequel or reboot and expect it to be a big success. This might potentially hurt Donkey Kong Country Returns. It certainly killed Jungle Beat.

But you also can't just have character and universe with gameplay ignored. Want an example? See Mario Pinball Land, Super Princess Peach and possibly Metroid Other M. I know you hate the former, but you've got to admit it did do a decent job of trying to please the fans (Mario 64 enemies, Crobrats, Culex music remix, etc), just failed miserably in being a fun game. Same with Super Princess Peach to a degree. It was basically a SMB 3 and SMW enemy reunion, pity it let itself down with poor gameplay decisions and apparently quite mediocre level design.

Metroid Other M? Likely to please the self proclaimed fanboys and 'hardcore' message board dwellers, but I don't think it's going to succeed with the rest of the population (over 2 hours of cut scenes and an option to play them as a movie DVD style?)

But I never got why it seems almost all reboots seem to put no heart into the character designs. Can you really find me a sympathetic, interesting Jungle Beat enemy? Probably not.

[Artemendo]

Yes, that is a big problem. But it has to do with human nature. The designers work on something that has been once great, but which they believe needs changes, so they reboot it. Each of them believes it's going to be even greater after their remaking of it, and as such they all try to cram as many "new" ideas into it as possible - since the later games will be based on it, their work MIGHT become legendary. So they completely forget about existing rules and character development and make everything "new" and "better". Now, the problem is that in very many cases, what the people want from a reboot is a return to the first few intallments of a series, not a further diversion from them. Caught in their hopes of being makers of something legendary, however, they ignore it.

[cheat-master30]

I agree. It may also in the case of DK Country Returns be due to how there hasn't been a platformer with classic characters since the Nintendo 64 days, so it's not as if this is a one off occurrence.

[SMBBQ]

I personally, am anticipating a DKC Returns sequel where it's revealed the Tikis were being controlled by K. Rool all along. Either way, they'll return. The fans will hate Retro forever if they don't.

[cheat-master30]

They'd better return. And contrary to nearly everyone else on some sites, I'd love if K Rool turned out to be the real villain behind it all.

[SMBBQ]

Forgive me for saying this, but that'd be orgasmic.

[shadowgoomba]

Culex music remix, etc

Wait, what? There's no way Square would go for that.