Mushroom Kingdom Geography

[EpicGyllynn]

Well, PS3 already has those painstakingly realistic, and blandly named "Avatars" from PlayStation Home. And, Koopalmier, the Nintendogs world, Wii Party world, and Wii Sports/Fit could arguably be the same thing! I'm still leaning on my original theory.

[EpicGyllynn]

On Topic:What is left for us to discuss about Mushroom kingdom Geography? I know this was a great thread and has had a long run, but it can't be over yet, can it?

[rhinotaur]

Uhh, did the topic go over if the Mushroom Kingdom had arctic regions?

[Sarisa]

I thought it was certain that it did; Shiver City and Fahr Outpost are snow-covered when the rest of the Mushroom Kingdom's trees are fully covered in leaves. Then again, even Shiver City seems to be at altitude, and the PM1 map shows green land below the mountains (which might be lower-altitude tundra).

[kingkoopa]

Well... I guess we will have to wait for the next Mario game before we can discuss anything else here. Unless someone else can find some other location that hasn't been discussed.

[Koopalmier]

It has arctic regions. Look at the continent in SMG2, and at the 7th world of Donkey Kong. But I think the Shiver region, although looking polar, isn't polar - or else a big part of the continent would be separating the Mushroom Kingdom from Rogueport, when it appeas there's only a small sea.

[SMBBQ]

Unless you follow the idea that DK'94 all took place on or around DK Island...

[Sarisa]

The Shiver region is at an indefinite altitude; you go there by warp pipe rather than climb, so it's impossible to say exactly. Still, even in the northerly parts of the rest of the game, like the area around Koopa Bros. Fortress, it looks like late April or early May - and Shiver City is still covered in snow, and Goombario says that Goompa said that Shiver City is covered in snow year round. That can't be true or it couldn't support trees (well, in real life), but I'm imagining a Dfc climate rather like Nome, Alaska or Magadan, Siberia - highs don't rise above freezing until April and dip back below freezing in October. To get a climate like that around 40 N, I'm guessing the city would need to be 8200 ft (2500 m) high - has anyone seen mountains that look high enough to have valleys over 2500 m (Starborn Valley)? Of course, at a higher latitude - say, 60 N, near the Arctic Circle - Shiver City could be only half a mile high, although the snow line (which the Crystal Palace is probably above) is still around 5200 ft (1500 m). Shiver City could be above the Arctic Circle, but is probably at a low altitude if it is.

For perspective, if Toad Town is around 35 N (Tokyo or Memphis, Tennessee), Shiver City at 45 N (Minneapolis, Minnesota) is about 700 miles north of Toad Town, and at 58 N (northern Alberta) around 1600 miles north. If Shiver City is arctic, the Mushroom Kingdom would be larger than Australia!

tl;dr You can get an arctic climate at any latitude if it's high enough. Shiver City has to be some combination of very far north and very high. If it's two miles high it can be quite far south; if it's only one mile high it needs to be north of 50 N; if it's low-lying it needs to be north of 60 N.

[Koopalmier]

So the Shiver Region can have a polar temperature but still be "near" Toad Town ? Well, that makes sense, considering pretty much every mountain we've seen in the Mario series is extremely high. Heck, the mountain at Plack Beach is about as high as the Sky Station Galaxy.

[EpicGyllynn]

I think the Mushroom kingdom is MUCH bigger than what we see in the games, as the games only show locations that are relevant to the story in some way. So I have no trouble assuming that there is a rather large distance between Toad Town, Shiver City, and DryDry Outpost for that matter.

[kingkoopa]

Dry Dry Outpost and Shiver City are the two places in Paper Mario that you are not seen traveling every inch of the way there. For Dry Dry Desert it may show the whole train ride but it might have only shown the relevant parts. And for Shiver City... Um you took a warp pipe, the pipe that can take you ANYWHERE. It is safe to assume that they aren't exactly neighboring the MK.

[EpicGyllynn]

I still think they are part of the Kingdom, but there is a high altitude Mountain Range between Mushroom Plains, and Shiver Snowfields/Tundra. But I think that the Snowfields and City itself aren't very much higher in altitude than, say, Toad Town.

[Koopalmier]

Oct 11, 2010 18:34:16 GMT -5 kingkoopa said:

Dry Dry Outpost and Shiver City are the two places in Paper Mario that you are not seen traveling every inch of the way there. For Dry Dry Desert it may show the whole train ride but it might have only shown the relevant parts. And for Shiver City... Um you took a warp pipe, the pipe that can take you ANYWHERE. It is safe to assume that they aren't exactly neighboring the MK.

But you seem to forget something. Here's how it goes:
img225.imageshack.us/img225/849/dududu.png

The games strongly hint that the Bob-Ombs, which are from Fahr Outpost, travelled through the mountains and became inhabitant of Koopa Village.

[kingkoopa]

But we don't know how far the mountains are from Rougeport or even the MK. Plus wouldn't it be Fahr Outpost at the right end instead of Rougeport?

[Sarisa]

I inferred that Fahr Outpost is in the Snow Mountains between Rogueport and Toad Town, as part of the general theory that the PM2 map is to the east of the PM1 map and the landmasses are linked by the mountains.

I don't think we have much information on the altitude of Shiver City and Starborn Valley, honestly. The name Starborn Valley implies a mountainous area (as does the map), which implies that Shiver City and Starborn Valley aren't at sea level like Toad Town is. However, I don't see a way to determine whether Shiver City is at 2000 feet or 10,000 feet (600 m or 3000 m) or anything in between.

However, one thing to keep in mind is that most states are territorially contiguous; that is to say, there aren't any parts of the Mushroom Kingdom completely surrounded by another country. So if you place Shiver City at low altitude, you place it far from Toad Town, which makes the Mushroom Kingdom larger.

Incidentally, Shiver Mountain is probably 1500 feet or so over Shiver City. Mario's an impressive mountain climber.

[Koopalmier]

Mario has the power (of jumping) with him.

[Sarisa]

Come to think of it, what's the closest part of the Mushroom Kingdom to Little Fungitown, Beanbean? Toadwood Forest? Goomba Village? We know the Beanbean Borderland/Stardust Fields crossing gets no traffic and the modern Beanbean Kingdom has no obvious ports, so most of the Beanbean Kingdom's commerce with the Mushroom Kingdom probably goes through Little Fungitown. You'd think there'd be a good road on the MK side.

[Vent]

Well it's not like they don't have advanced method of transportation. The Mushroom Kingdom could easily ship their goods to Little Fungitown via Paratroopa, Goonies, Lakitus, you name it.

[Sarisa]

The heaviest cargo I've seen a Paratroopa or Lakitu carry is 200 pounds of plumber, and Parakarry could only carry that weight for seconds. Air travel in general is a lot more expensive than ground travel - luxuries and people travel by air, bulk goods travel by truck or train (or boat, but does the Beanbean Kingdom have any ports?). It works fine for air mail (mail is light, valuable, and thus one of the first cargos sent using a new transportation device) and expensive emergency transportation, but if 100% air shipping is the solution, it's a bizarre situation.

[Vent]

On the other hand, who's to say there's any commerce at all between Beanbean and the Mushroom Kingdom? Fungitown was an immigrant town, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything there is important from the Mushroom Kingdom. Heck, the "Invincishroom" that Mario ate gave him Bean Fever, which probably means it was a type of Mushroom native to the Beanbean Kingdom.